As a thief in the night

Most important to me about the thief is that it is tied into the Day of the lord that can't happen till the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.

This is true but how is it unexpected then?

This is true but how is it unexpected then?

do you think it’s a misinterpretation for us to think there is going to be unmistakable utter world wide chaos just before his return ?

and maybe it’s more about the state of the worlds wickedness , that we have as humans accepted as normal that we should be looking to ? And it’s going to be just another day on this fallen and very wicked world , that we might not realize unless we are hearing what Jesus said ?

maybe we should rethink the great tribulation as being what Happened to jesuralem just after Christ went into heaven in 67-70 ad , and the subsequent tribulation against the early church by Rome that followed.

and the ongoing tribulations in the world today are what we should be noticing ?

it seems as if it’s going to be without warning if we aren’t looking

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew‬ ‭24:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when the flood came the world was in a very wicked state ,but it was just another day to those who didn’t hear Gods warning of the flood and it took them by surprise. (Genesis‬ ‭6:5-22 KJV‬‬)

“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In sodom and Gomorrah when it was destroyed the people in those cities thought it was just another day until the fire came and destroyed them. They were used to the wickedness it was just another day in thier city, and then suddenly it was destroyed

We see that life was going on as normal , but the state of the world was wicked in Noah’s day and e people of lots day also were in a state of wickedness. Only the ones who listened to Gods warning knew it was near

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:33-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think it’s a misinterpretation for us to think there is going to be unmistakable utter world wide chaos just before his return ?

and maybe it’s more about the state of the worlds wickedness , that we have as humans accepted as normal that we should be looking to ? And it’s going to be just another day on this fallen and very wicked world , that we might not realize unless we are hearing what Jesus said ?

maybe we should rethink the great tribulation as being what Happened to jesuralem just after Christ went into heaven in 67-70 ad , and the subsequent tribulation against the early church by Rome that followed.

and the ongoing tribulations in the world today are what we should be noticing ?

it seems as if it’s going to be without warning if we aren’t looking

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

Most important to me about the thief is that it is tied into the Day of the lord that can't happen till the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.

It's unexpected by the unsaved. The worldy.

I think you're right. It's more about the state of wickedness that we have accepted as normal...but the world's wickedness and what happened to the Jews aren't mutually exclusive.

Addressing the first part of my reply; The Messiah said it would be like birth pangs (contractions), which aren't instantly and immediately severe but that progressively intensify over time. It's like the concept of boiling a frog: Toss a frog in boiling water and it'll jump out to safety, but place it in cool water that's gradually heated up and in time the frog will be cooked never realizing it was in danger.

If we compare life in 2019 to 5 years prior it wouldn't look that much worse. But compare the same date to the time of Messiah (using His metric for measuring good and evil), and we must say this world is so incredibly evil and chaotic that it's clear we're only here because of His mercy and patience...food isn't even real anymore...but this our normal.

----

With regard to the great tribulation; we believers have made it into a Proper Noun as if it's a singular definitive EVENT (which we then assume will last a specific time), but rather The Messiah was simply explaining to them that a TIME of hardship would occur (which would include several events) and noted that it would be a time worse than any other time a nation has ever experienced or will ever experience.

We've done the same thing with "antichrist" and "mark of the beast". It's not simply "one who is against Christ" anymore but THE Antichrist (and have created books and movies to feed the lore). It's not simply "a mark of the animal" that shows people will act and believe they are more like animals than humans in the last days but "THE mark of THE beast" (with countless studies and assumptions on what it could possibly be year by year).

We've almost personified these concepts and moved them far past the simple ideas they were meant to express (I fault the Elizabethan English of the original KJV).

So it's not THE Great Tribulation (*cue explosions in background*), but a time of terrible suffering and persecution that The Messiah said would start with the destruction of the Temple & Jerusalem, and lead to the Jews death, scattering, and further persecution in the lands they're scattered to (Luke 21:21-24). He then adds that if that time isn't cut short no flesh would be saved. The same wickedness that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jew also led to:

- Holy wars (crusades)
- Inquisitions & massacres of "heretics" (dark ages)
- Bible restrictions & burnings
- Mass plagues killing millions
- Conquering of sovereign lands by kingdoms
- World-wide slavery of human beings
- World wars (1 & 2)
- Rapid advancement in destructive technologies (like atomic bombs)
- Counter-philosophies that lead to hedonism and atheism

Humanity literally would not still be here if the Almighty's hand wasn't sparing us from ourselves these last approx 2000 years.

----

When we take a full view of history (not limiting ourselves to just "religious history") we see a timeline of incredible hardship, persecution, and suffering across the entire world that's getting more acute...but to your point, how many of us are looking at all that's happened in the world since Messiah ascended?

We keep waiting for THE "this" and THE "that" to start or appear even though the heat has never been hotter upon us in this pot.

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

Because most of us won't know who he is or when he will surface. Don't forget there will be, is and was more than two. I fact the Book of Revelations (by it's self) lists four beasts. It's only the last two that we usually worry about.

just thought about the four beasts

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

…And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

….And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see.

…. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1, 3, 5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that seems to result in this

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which later results in this

“Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Good day!

I believe that we will experience the chaos right up to the time that the church is gathered, but that we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Regarding the comparison of Noah, think of it this way: current believers in Christ represent Noah. God told Noah that He was going to flood the earth and for him to build an ark. It took Noah a 100 years to build it and during that time he was preaching to the people about God's coming wrath via the flood, but they did not believe. Likewise, believers have been telling people that the church is going to be gathered (which is our ark), as well as the wrath that is to follow. And just as it was at the time of Noah, so it will be with the Lord rescuing His church and the following wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I would also mention that the sudden destruction is likened unto a woman having birth pains, which would demonstrate that the sudden destruction will take place over a period of time. For regarding birth pains, they start out mild and far apart and then get closer together and more intense. This would describe the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, i.e. plague of wrath, after plague of wrath. In other words, the sudden destruction is not going take place all in one day, but over that seven year period. With just the 4th seal and 6th Trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), over half the earth's population will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. By the time that sudden destruction is completed, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

I find some agreement there and then you already know the parts I respectfully ( as I respect your understanding a lot ) disagree with from prior conversations but this part here consider this

“we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened,”

When the seals are opened

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭

Then

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I see it as the seals being what was foretold in the ot pertaining to the curses and judgements in the law that would begin in Jerusalem and spread out into all the world

I think that’s what we’re seeing in the four horsemen is God sending those four judgements into the earth because of the breaking of Israel’s covenant when they crucified the messiah

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think they have come out of the earth and it’s perpetual tribulations we’re talking about . As we die in this world I believe we’re gathered in that place until everyone who belongs is there but for the final day when he returns and tethers those still on earth to join with those already gathered in heaven.

I don’t think revelation is Chronilogically ordered but is a vision of apocalypse and shows us a complete picture of what happens through all time

this isn’t meant to argue against your view but just a consideration thanks for the input and post there brother it’s considered and appreciated (sorry I’m sometimes difficult to follow
What I’m trying to say doin my best though )