As a thief in the night

[Pilgrimshope]

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew‬ ‭24:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when the flood came the world was in a very wicked state ,but it was just another day to those who didn’t hear Gods warning of the flood and it took them by surprise. (Genesis‬ ‭6:5-22 KJV‬‬)

“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In sodom and Gomorrah when it was destroyed the people in those cities thought it was just another day until the fire came and destroyed them. They were used to the wickedness it was just another day in thier city, and then suddenly it was destroyed

We see that life was going on as normal , but the state of the world was wicked in Noah’s day and e people of lots day also were in a state of wickedness. Only the ones who listened to Gods warning knew it was near

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:33-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think it’s a misinterpretation for us to think there is going to be unmistakable utter world wide chaos just before his return ?

and maybe it’s more about the state of the worlds wickedness , that we have as humans accepted as normal that we should be looking to ? And it’s going to be just another day on this fallen and very wicked world , that we might not realize unless we are hearing what Jesus said ?

maybe we should rethink the great tribulation as being what Happened to jesuralem just after Christ went into heaven in 67-70 ad , and the subsequent tribulation against the early church by Rome that followed.

and the ongoing tribulations in the world today are what we should be noticing ?

it seems as if it’s going to be without warning if we aren’t looking

 

[de-emerald]

The thief in the night is also the thorn in your side, the good part is learnin how to put up with the thorn in your side, and when you do learn this then you will be a good steward, this is why paul was a good steward,, he was able to put up with the thorn in his side and had no problem admiting he had a thorn in his side,, but the only reason he could admit and knew he had a thorn in his side was because he was wise and walked with God. God made him wise. This is the only chance a person has of becoming a good steward and good judge of people. The thorn in your side will allways look to judge somebody else rather than you judge your self. because the thorn in your side does not want to be judged, and will continue to Judge everything but himself. and through you too.

anyway i will pray for you. God bless you

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

@Pilgrimshope, I agree with you that for those who have not been watching for Him, Jesus will come as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Matthew 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

Daniel 12:9-10
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt NOT WATCH, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

 

[Omegatime]

Most important to me about the thief is that it is tied into the Day of the lord that can't happen till the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.

 

[Hakawaka]

Most important to me about the thief is that it is tied into the Day of the lord that can't happen till the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.

This is true but how is it unexpected then?

 

[Cabrillo]

This is true but how is it unexpected then?

Because most of us won't know who he is or when he will surface. Don't forget there will be, is and was more than two. I fact the Book of Revelations (by it's self) lists four beasts. It's only the last two that we usually worry about.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

This is true but how is it unexpected then?

It's unexpected by the unsaved. The worldy.

 

[Yahshua]

do you think it’s a misinterpretation for us to think there is going to be unmistakable utter world wide chaos just before his return ?

and maybe it’s more about the state of the worlds wickedness , that we have as humans accepted as normal that we should be looking to ? And it’s going to be just another day on this fallen and very wicked world , that we might not realize unless we are hearing what Jesus said ?

maybe we should rethink the great tribulation as being what Happened to jesuralem just after Christ went into heaven in 67-70 ad , and the subsequent tribulation against the early church by Rome that followed.

and the ongoing tribulations in the world today are what we should be noticing ?

it seems as if it’s going to be without warning if we aren’t looking

I think you're right. It's more about the state of wickedness that we have accepted as normal...but the world's wickedness and what happened to the Jews aren't mutually exclusive.

Addressing the first part of my reply; The Messiah said it would be like birth pangs (contractions), which aren't instantly and immediately severe but that progressively intensify over time. It's like the concept of boiling a frog: Toss a frog in boiling water and it'll jump out to safety, but place it in cool water that's gradually heated up and in time the frog will be cooked never realizing it was in danger.

If we compare life in 2019 to 5 years prior it wouldn't look that much worse. But compare the same date to the time of Messiah (using His metric for measuring good and evil), and we must say this world is so incredibly evil and chaotic that it's clear we're only here because of His mercy and patience...food isn't even real anymore...but this our normal.

----

With regard to the great tribulation; we believers have made it into a Proper Noun as if it's a singular definitive EVENT (which we then assume will last a specific time), but rather The Messiah was simply explaining to them that a TIME of hardship would occur (which would include several events) and noted that it would be a time worse than any other time a nation has ever experienced or will ever experience.

We've done the same thing with "antichrist" and "mark of the beast". It's not simply "one who is against Christ" anymore but THE Antichrist (and have created books and movies to feed the lore). It's not simply "a mark of the animal" that shows people will act and believe they are more like animals than humans in the last days but "THE mark of THE beast" (with countless studies and assumptions on what it could possibly be year by year).

We've almost personified these concepts and moved them far past the simple ideas they were meant to express (I fault the Elizabethan English of the original KJV).

So it's not THE Great Tribulation (*cue explosions in background*), but a time of terrible suffering and persecution that The Messiah said would start with the destruction of the Temple & Jerusalem, and lead to the Jews death, scattering, and further persecution in the lands they're scattered to (Luke 21:21-24). He then adds that if that time isn't cut short no flesh would be saved. The same wickedness that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jew also led to:

- Holy wars (crusades)
- Inquisitions & massacres of "heretics" (dark ages)
- Bible restrictions & burnings
- Mass plagues killing millions
- Conquering of sovereign lands by kingdoms
- World-wide slavery of human beings
- World wars (1 & 2)
- Rapid advancement in destructive technologies (like atomic bombs)
- Counter-philosophies that lead to hedonism and atheism

Humanity literally would not still be here if the Almighty's hand wasn't sparing us from ourselves these last approx 2000 years.

----

When we take a full view of history (not limiting ourselves to just "religious history") we see a timeline of incredible hardship, persecution, and suffering across the entire world that's getting more acute...but to your point, how many of us are looking at all that's happened in the world since Messiah ascended?

We keep waiting for THE "this" and THE "that" to start or appear even though the heat has never been hotter upon us in this pot.

 

[Gardenias]

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

 

[Ahwatukee]

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
Matthew‬ ‭24:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when the flood came the world was in a very wicked state ,but it was just another day to those who didn’t hear Gods warning of the flood and it took them by surprise. (Genesis‬ ‭6:5-22 KJV‬‬)

“Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭17:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In sodom and Gomorrah when it was destroyed the people in those cities thought it was just another day until the fire came and destroyed them. They were used to the wickedness it was just another day in thier city, and then suddenly it was destroyed

We see that life was going on as normal , but the state of the world was wicked in Noah’s day and e people of lots day also were in a state of wickedness. Only the ones who listened to Gods warning knew it was near

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.”
1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:33-37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you think it’s a misinterpretation for us to think there is going to be unmistakable utter world wide chaos just before his return ?

and maybe it’s more about the state of the worlds wickedness , that we have as humans accepted as normal that we should be looking to ? And it’s going to be just another day on this fallen and very wicked world , that we might not realize unless we are hearing what Jesus said ?

maybe we should rethink the great tribulation as being what Happened to jesuralem just after Christ went into heaven in 67-70 ad , and the subsequent tribulation against the early church by Rome that followed.

and the ongoing tribulations in the world today are what we should be noticing ?

it seems as if it’s going to be without warning if we aren’t looking

Good day!

I believe that we will experience the chaos right up to the time that the church is gathered, but that we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Regarding the comparison of Noah, think of it this way: current believers in Christ represent Noah. God told Noah that He was going to flood the earth and for him to build an ark. It took Noah a 100 years to build it and during that time he was preaching to the people about God's coming wrath via the flood, but they did not believe. Likewise, believers have been telling people that the church is going to be gathered (which is our ark), as well as the wrath that is to follow. And just as it was at the time of Noah, so it will be with the Lord rescuing His church and the following wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I would also mention that the sudden destruction is likened unto a woman having birth pains, which would demonstrate that the sudden destruction will take place over a period of time. For regarding birth pains, they start out mild and far apart and then get closer together and more intense. This would describe the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, i.e. plague of wrath, after plague of wrath. In other words, the sudden destruction is not going take place all in one day, but over that seven year period. With just the 4th seal and 6th Trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), over half the earth's population will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. By the time that sudden destruction is completed, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

 

[Hungry]

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

I think it’s funny how you mention alcohol consumers then Noah. One of the first things he did post flood was plant a vineyard and get drunk.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Most important to me about the thief is that it is tied into the Day of the lord that can't happen till the antichrist takes his seat in the temple of God.

yeah that was what I was saying we should possibly reconsider how we as a church usually interpret that but it’s not to argue with you or insult your interpretation there , just a thought to consider

I personally think we may be misinterpreting the “anti christ “

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It's unexpected by the unsaved. The worldy.

yes this was my thinking also , so the idea that the world is going to be in total chaos and in utter literal tribulation doesn’t make sense.

But it seems as if the world is already in chaos but to those who are outside Christ it seems just like a normal thing

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like the world today really . it’s a pretty perilous world of someone is following Christ many nations persecute openly Christians. But I think maybe like in Noah’s day the world is going to be caught unaware , like in lots day also

but it could be because the world has accepted the spiritual peril and chaos l around us and the state of the world and Christians are looking more to the state of the spiritual things like the verses above

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think you're right. It's more about the state of wickedness that we have accepted as normal...but the world's wickedness and what happened to the Jews aren't mutually exclusive.

Addressing the first part of my reply; The Messiah said it would be like birth pangs (contractions), which aren't instantly and immediately severe but that progressively intensify over time. It's like the concept of boiling a frog: Toss a frog in boiling water and it'll jump out to safety, but place it in cool water that's gradually heated up and in time the frog will be cooked never realizing it was in danger.

If we compare life in 2019 to 5 years prior it wouldn't look that much worse. But compare the same date to the time of Messiah (using His metric for measuring good and evil), and we must say this world is so incredibly evil and chaotic that it's clear we're only here because of His mercy and patience...food isn't even real anymore...but this our normal.

----

With regard to the great tribulation; we believers have made it into a Proper Noun as if it's a singular definitive EVENT (which we then assume will last a specific time), but rather The Messiah was simply explaining to them that a TIME of hardship would occur (which would include several events) and noted that it would be a time worse than any other time a nation has ever experienced or will ever experience.

We've done the same thing with "antichrist" and "mark of the beast". It's not simply "one who is against Christ" anymore but THE Antichrist (and have created books and movies to feed the lore). It's not simply "a mark of the animal" that shows people will act and believe they are more like animals than humans in the last days but "THE mark of THE beast" (with countless studies and assumptions on what it could possibly be year by year).

We've almost personified these concepts and moved them far past the simple ideas they were meant to express (I fault the Elizabethan English of the original KJV).

So it's not THE Great Tribulation (*cue explosions in background*), but a time of terrible suffering and persecution that The Messiah said would start with the destruction of the Temple & Jerusalem, and lead to the Jews death, scattering, and further persecution in the lands they're scattered to (Luke 21:21-24). He then adds that if that time isn't cut short no flesh would be saved. The same wickedness that led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jew also led to:

- Holy wars (crusades)
- Inquisitions & massacres of "heretics" (dark ages)
- Bible restrictions & burnings
- Mass plagues killing millions
- Conquering of sovereign lands by kingdoms
- World-wide slavery of human beings
- World wars (1 & 2)
- Rapid advancement in destructive technologies (like atomic bombs)
- Counter-philosophies that lead to hedonism and atheism

Humanity literally would not still be here if the Almighty's hand wasn't sparing us from ourselves these last approx 2000 years.

----

When we take a full view of history (not limiting ourselves to just "religious history") we see a timeline of incredible hardship, persecution, and suffering across the entire world that's getting more acute...but to your point, how many of us are looking at all that's happened in the world since Messiah ascended?

We keep waiting for THE "this" and THE "that" to start or appear even though the heat has never been hotter upon us in this pot.

yes I find a lot of agreement there I think when he says this

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:21 ‭KJV‬‬

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s telling us this isn’t the end , because he makes the point it’s not going to be that bad before or after this time

if we consider romes power at the time and what happened to the Jews of Jerusalem during the three year siege and then also what happened to the early church I don’t think it will be as concentrated as what happened to them again but the tribulation continues on through time in waves and are perpetual

I don’t think ( just my own thought ) that there’s going to be all the physical signs some expect to see. But we should be looking for the state of the wickedness in the world

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I find your post there pretty edifying for myself anyways and found a lot of agreement. I think if we take time to really find out what happened under Nero and Titus to the church it helps us see it a bIt differently

thanks for the thorough and informative post

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

amen I see it just the same I think in. Noah’s day

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the people were probably just living thier lives in that state of wickedness , and only Noah who was willing to believe what God had said

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8, 13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

…Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think what Jesus is saying about it’s going to be as Noah’s time , supports what you are saying the flood came upon men as a thief in the night because of the state of thier hearts and minds

I believe we should be looking closer and in a different way or we may miss the signs of his coming getting closer

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:11-14‬ ‭

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems like he could come today or maybe a thousand years from now , but until he does today is the day of salvstion if we hear him and don’t turn away from him and harden our hearts

 

[Ahwatukee]

@Pilgrimshope I totally agree that the thief comes on suddenly and UNEXPECTEDLY!

When I was a child you NEVER saw homosexuality on t.v.,now it is in just about everything we watch even news and talk shows.

We have become complacent regarding the SINS OF THE WORLD and have let them creep into our churches also!

Homosexuality
Adultery
Swingers
Drug addicts
Alcohol consumers
Abortion
Racism
Ect.

I look and think could Noah's or Lot's days be any worse than today?


We must shake ourselves and awake out of our deep sleep to be ready!

I totally agree with you here, Garenias!

I truly believe that we have been observing the on-going apostasy that Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2. There was a time when, even though there were unbelievers, there still seemed to be a reverence for God. However, today the world is eagerly engaging in and running head-long and embracing the sinful nature.

We see the pride, arrogance and the lack of humility in the world through the media and in our everyday lives. Then add to that, the outbreak of same-sex, men marrying men and the same with women, showing that we are in the last days. Then add the fact that the mark of the beast technology is here and being used. One would have to be blind not to recognize what days we are living in and therefore how close we are to the Lord's appearing to gather His church before His wrath is poured out.

The world has come together through the media and technology. They are building or have built their tower of Babel.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Because most of us won't know who he is or when he will surface. Don't forget there will be, is and was more than two. I fact the Book of Revelations (by it's self) lists four beasts. It's only the last two that we usually worry about.

just thought about the four beasts

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

…And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

….And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see.

…. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1, 3, 5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that seems to result in this

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which later results in this

“Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems as if the four beasts in heaven around the throne speak as the first four seals are opened and send “ the four spirits of the heavens “

“And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭6:5‬ ‭

Into the earth and they have a certain particular plan and purpose first to observe the earth and mans wickedness and then To hold back the wrath until the sealing of Gods people.

I’m not sure if that relates for you but it’s only a consideration

 

[Ahwatukee]

just thought about the four beasts

“And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

…And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

….And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see.

…. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:1, 3, 5, 7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that seems to result in this

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which later results in this

“Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Good day, Pilgrimshope!

I agree with you, in-part, meaning that the results of those four angels who are told not to harm the earth, nor sea, nor any tree, is not just the 6th trumpet where those angels kill a third of mankind. But the results are all of the previous trumpets and bowl judgements as well:

1st Trumpet = a third of the earth and the trees are burned up

2nd Trumpet = Something like a huge mountain all ablaze (asteroid coming through the atmosphere?) being thrown into the ocean with a third of the creatures of the sea being killed and a third of the ships.

3rd Trumpet = A third of the rivers and fresh water contaminated, so that many people die from drinking the water.

4th Trumpet = No direct destruction of the earth, sea or trees. Only a third less light on the earth during the day and night.

5th Trumpet = Demonic being released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for 5 months

6th Trumpet = Four evil angels and their demonic army of 200 million kill a third of mankind

7th Trumpet = Satan and his angels cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. (Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.”

The bowl judgments are also included in the destruction of the earth by those four angels.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good day!

I believe that we will experience the chaos right up to the time that the church is gathered, but that we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Regarding the comparison of Noah, think of it this way: current believers in Christ represent Noah. God told Noah that He was going to flood the earth and for him to build an ark. It took Noah a 100 years to build it and during that time he was preaching to the people about God's coming wrath via the flood, but they did not believe. Likewise, believers have been telling people that the church is going to be gathered (which is our ark), as well as the wrath that is to follow. And just as it was at the time of Noah, so it will be with the Lord rescuing His church and the following wrath.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I would also mention that the sudden destruction is likened unto a woman having birth pains, which would demonstrate that the sudden destruction will take place over a period of time. For regarding birth pains, they start out mild and far apart and then get closer together and more intense. This would describe the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, i.e. plague of wrath, after plague of wrath. In other words, the sudden destruction is not going take place all in one day, but over that seven year period. With just the 4th seal and 6th Trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), over half the earth's population will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. By the time that sudden destruction is completed, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

I find some agreement there and then you already know the parts I respectfully ( as I respect your understanding a lot ) disagree with from prior conversations but this part here consider this

“we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened,”

When the seals are opened

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭

Then

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the israels number is sealed ( ot) and after that people from all nations are included ( nt) so it sort of to me at least shows that the opening of the seals is only the beginning of a process that then unfolds through time forst they are given power to carry our judgement but then they are holding it back until all Gods people ot and nt are sealed and gathered , and then after that they are unleashed

“And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭9:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so it sort of shows us that the “opening of the seals “ is an event that happens in heaven and then the riders on the horses spiritual beings , are sent into the earth but people are being sealed after that happens and until the actions take place later.

I see it as the seals being what was foretold in the ot pertaining to the curses and judgements in the law that would begin in Jerusalem and spread out into all the world

“For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭14:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think that’s what we’re seeing in the four horsemen is God sending those four judgements into the earth because of the breaking of Israel’s covenant when they crucified the messiah

but again that’s only a consideration that the opening of the seals is showing us what John heard in prophecy beforehand and is seeing it begin to unfold but wouldn’t actually be manifest in earth until the gospel was preached to all nations and is how the people are gathered

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think they have come out of the earth and it’s perpetual tribulations we’re talking about . As we die in this world I believe we’re gathered in that place until everyone who belongs is there but for the final day when he returns and tethers those still on earth to join with those already gathered in heaven .

I don’t think revelation is Chronilogically ordered but is a vision of apocalypse and shows us a complete picture of what happens through all time

this isn’t meant to argue against your view but just a consideration thanks for the input and post there brother it’s considered and appreciated (sorry I’m sometimes difficult to follow
What I’m trying to say doin my best though )

 

[Ahwatukee]

I find some agreement there and then you already know the parts I respectfully ( as I respect your understanding a lot ) disagree with from prior conversations but this part here consider this

“we will be gathered to the Lord prior to that first seal being opened,”

When the seals are opened

“And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:7-8‬ ‭

Then

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

First I would submit that, the four living beings, the Ker-oob, are not the same angels as those who are standing at the four corners of the earth to harm the earth, sea and trees.

My point was/is, that everything that happens regarding the earth, sea and trees will be the result of those four angels who are told to not harm the earth, sea and trees until the 144,000 are sealed.

I see it as the seals being what was foretold in the ot pertaining to the curses and judgements in the law that would begin in Jerusalem and spread out into all the world

I agree that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire world.

I think that’s what we’re seeing in the four horsemen is God sending those four judgements into the earth because of the breaking of Israel’s covenant when they crucified the messiah

I see the four horsemen as not being specific to Israel, but God's wrath upon the entire earth. In support of this, at the fourth seal, Death and Hades personified, are given authority to kill a fourth of the earth's population. There is no way that Israel could meet that number of a fourth, but demonstrates the general population on the earth.

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The group above are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, those who will come out of the great tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. In further support of this, when asked who they are, John doesn't know, even though he had just written letters to the seven churches. The fact that we are being introduced to this group and that John doesn't know who they are, demonstrates that it is not the church, but another group.

I think they have come out of the earth and it’s perpetual tribulations we’re talking about . As we die in this world I believe we’re gathered in that place until everyone who belongs is there but for the final day when he returns and tethers those still on earth to join with those already gathered in heaven.

The gathering of the church found in 1 Thess.4:16-17, is shown to be a group event which takes place almost simultaneously, with the dead resurrecting first, then the living being transformed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. At that time the entire church from beginning to end will be with the Lord in the air, where He will then take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

I don’t think revelation is Chronilogically ordered but is a vision of apocalypse and shows us a complete picture of what happens through all time

this isn’t meant to argue against your view but just a consideration thanks for the input and post there brother it’s considered and appreciated (sorry I’m sometimes difficult to follow
What I’m trying to say doin my best though )

And I see it as it taking place chronologically, ergo the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments each numbered one thru seven.

And same here. I also appreciate your input and am just putting out there the why's and how comes of what I believe from scripture.