Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

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J

justbyfaith

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TheLearner said:
I am not sure I understand what you wrote after "The everlasting Father". But, I know from my Hebrew training in Jewish Temple School that the phrase means God as Creator, source of eternity and that his nature is eternal.

For a Child hath been born to us, a Son hath been given to us, and the princely power is on his shoulder, and He doth call His name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace (YLT)..
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"Father of eternity" is still the Father...perhaps you should change the wording again?

Holy Spirit pre-existed the incarnation as a person.
. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
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The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is holy.

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1
John 2:1.
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Yet, notice how, in the context of the first verse you referenced, He says, "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you."

2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
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See also Luke 23:46.

3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to
glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in
Matt. 28:19.
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The greek word for "and" in that scripture (Mt 28:19) is "kai" which can also be translated as "even".

5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22
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As I have said, the Holy Spirit ascended (Luke 23:46) into eternity and also descends into time to perform His work; even into the same time frame when He was dwelling in the Son.

Was the Holy Spirit indwelling Jesus when the Spirit descended on Jesus at His baptism?

6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
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The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11).

a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the
sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16,
citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English
Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
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So, the Holy Spirit is a different Lord than Jesus?

However, there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

So, you are saying, contrary to the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) that Jesus is not the Lord.

But if Jesus is the Lord and the Holy Spirit is the Lord, then they are the same Lord (Ephesians 4:5).

b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in
the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at
Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified
God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All
three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there
are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is
designated "the Holy Spirit."
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There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and therefore if all three Persons of the Trinity are Spirit, they are the same Spirit.

c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede
for us is consistent with the fact that we have two
Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances
to the disciples after the resurrection (compare
14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
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Jesus intercedes as the Man Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost intercedes within us and for us as we pray for one another.

e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in
various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22);
Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40,
44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John
14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the
believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying
believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works
prove that the two persons are both God, but not
that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
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I agree that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; for He is come in the flesh and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit without flesh.

However, I will say that the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11); whom He released from His human body at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit/(Ghost)
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I will also agree with you there (that the Father is not the Holy Ghost) but will contend that there is a sense in which the Holy Ghost is the Father.

But you would have to read what I have already written in this thread to be able to get an understanding of what I mean by that.
 
J

justbyfaith

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TheLearner said:
1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons
in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy
Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this
argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is
not a product of physical union between a man and
a woman!
b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be
active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus
(Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor.
1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1
Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the
two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.
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Consider what is written here.

2Co 1:3, Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4, Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the God of all comfort; yet we read elsewhere that the Holy Spirit is the Comforter.

The question I ask is whether you believe that the Holy Ghost is separate from God the Father; or whether they are distinct in your opinion.

If they are separate, then the Father is the God of all comfort and the Holy Ghost is also a God who is the God of comfort.

How many Gods is that, who are the God of comfort?

Who is the God of comfort? The Father, or the Holy Ghost?

Is the Holy Ghost, God in your opinion?

There must be at least some sense in which they are the same Spirit; for there is one God (James 2:19).

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24); while the Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).
 
J

justbyfaith

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#43
By way of review:

justbyfaith said:
I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

With this in mind, I encourage the reader to interpret 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6.

That being said, there are distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.

The Son is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 john 1:7).

The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); after having lived a human life in the Person of the Son (see Luke 23:46); released to the Father in eternity from the human body of the Son; and who also descends into time in order to produce holy scripture (1 Peter 1:11) and to work within the church in order to win souls to Jesus Christ.

The Father, in the descending into time to take on an added nature of human flesh, did not VACATE ETERNITY.

So, when Jesus releases His Spirit (see John 14:7-11) back into eternity, there is now one God existing beside Himself in eternity; as there are two distinct Persons in the Father and the Holy Ghost who are infinite in nature.

The Son also being infinite in nature in His Deity; however in His humanity, which has received a glorified human body likened unto the angels (Matthew 22:30), He is of a finite nature and as He said, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); while as concerning His Deity He is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

For I contend that the Son is the Son in the reality that there is a hypostatic union of the two natures of humanity and Deity.

I also contend that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but that He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) in the Person of the Holy Ghost.
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SteveEpperson

SteveEpperson

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May 12, 2018
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#44
justbyfaith said:
I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.
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You're much braver than me. But I think you gave it a college effort. :coffee: As for others who feel yours is false teaching, all I can say is :unsure:

Here's my take on it:

Holy, Holy, Holy
Lord God Almighty
God in three persons
Blessed Trinity!

And with that, I'm outa here. :cool:
 
J

justbyfaith

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#45
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

However, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).

Might it therefore be, that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19)?

And it is also true that the Lord is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17); while no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

And, there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

I will say again that Jesus is distinct from the Father and the Holy Ghost in that He is come in the flesh.

While the Father and the Holy Ghost are the one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) that dwells in the flesh of Jesus Christ (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11, Luke 23:46; Colossians 2:9).
 
J

justbyfaith

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#46
Again, the Father is distinct from the Holy Ghost in that He inhabits eternity in an original sense;

While the Holy Ghost was released into eternity from the human body of Jesus (Luke 23:46) and also descends into time to accomplish His work of indwelling the saints, producing fruit in their lives, and producing holy scripture (ex. 1 Peter 1:11, Galatians 5:22-23, 2 Peter 1:19-21).

Therefore, the Father, as He originally exists in eternity, does not experientially understand what it means to be human;

While the Holy Ghost does understand what it means to be human (Luke 23:46, Hebrews 2:9).

This is why it is not unpardonable for someone to blaspheme the Father; but it is unpardonable to blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Because the Holy Ghost is not going to treat us in a manner that is not in conjunction with understanding who we are as a people (in humanity).
 
J

justbyfaith

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Any answers for what I have most recently posted?
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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JaumeJ said:
God is One according to the OT and according to Jesus Yeshua. This does not say He is all three of His manifestations for He told Moses He will be what He wil be. No one understands this truth, not even if they elaborate a doctrine saying they do.
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Please clarify a little more on what you mean by "This does not say He is all three of His manifestations"

Thank You
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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I did say it is a mystery. Because God teaches this in thge Old and the New Teastaments, I believe it. Do you already understand all the implications of us all being transformed to be exactly like Jesus Yeshua, not He but exactlay like He? I do not, another mysstery to be revealed in His time

Therefore, because He teaches this, and He does not lie, I believe Him. . All should be the same do nou not think?
 
T

TheLearner

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#51
justbyfaith said:
"Father of eternity" is still the Father...perhaps you should change the wording again?



The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and He is holy.



Yet, notice how, in the context of the first verse you referenced, He says, "I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you."



See also Luke 23:46.



The greek word for "and" in that scripture (Mt 28:19) is "kai" which can also be translated as "even".



As I have said, the Holy Spirit ascended (Luke 23:46) into eternity and also descends into time to perform His work; even into the same time frame when He was dwelling in the Son.

Was the Holy Spirit indwelling Jesus when the Spirit descended on Jesus at His baptism?



The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11).



So, the Holy Spirit is a different Lord than Jesus?

However, there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

So, you are saying, contrary to the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3) that Jesus is not the Lord.

But if Jesus is the Lord and the Holy Spirit is the Lord, then they are the same Lord (Ephesians 4:5).



There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and therefore if all three Persons of the Trinity are Spirit, they are the same Spirit.



Jesus intercedes as the Man Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost intercedes within us and for us as we pray for one another.



I agree that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; for He is come in the flesh and the Holy Spirit is a Spirit without flesh.

However, I will say that the Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11); whom He released from His human body at the juncture of Luke 23:46.



I will also agree with you there (that the Father is not the Holy Ghost) but will contend that there is a sense in which the Holy Ghost is the Father.

But you would have to read what I have already written in this thread to be able to get an understanding of what I mean by that.
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My wife is awake, so I do not have time to address your full post.

The Word Father is not always literal. For example,

The Founding Fathers of the United States, or simply the Founding Fathers or Founders, were a group of American revolutionary leaders...

Genesis 17:5
I will change your name from Abram to Abraham, because I am making you the father of many nations.

Abraham did not literally become the physical father of all those people.

I am an expert in Hebrew and I know it used for the things I wrote.

Isa 9:6
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because the Child is born to us, and the Son is given to us, and his authority was on his shoulder, and his Name was called The Wonder and The Counselor, God, the Mighty Man of Eternity, the Prince of Peace [and The Father of Eternity]

JPS Tanakh 1917
For a child is born unto us, A son is given unto us; And the government is upon his shoulder; And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;

"If Jesus’ name is “Eternal Father,” then why don’t we call Jesus “Eternal Father”? For that matter, why don’t we call his name “Wonderful Counselor” or “Mighty God” or “Prince of Peace”? None of these phrases are used of Jesus in the New Testament. " https://carm.org/oneness-pentecostal/isaiah-96-is-jesus-the-everlasting-father/

Jesus was not given the name Immanuel in the NT, please explain why that please.

My name is Daniel which means God is Judge. I am no way God and I am not the Judge of all people on Judgement day.

Jewish names and titles have meanings.
 
T

TheLearner

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#52
Name Language/Cultural Origin Inherent Meaning Spiritual Connotation
A
Aaron, Aaran, Aaren,
Aarin, Aaronn, Aarron,
Aron, Arran, Arron Hebrew Light Bringer Radiating God's Light
Abbot, Abbott Aramaic Spiritual Leader Walks In Truth
Abdiel, Abdeel, Abdeil Hebrew Servant of God Worshiper
Abdul, Abdoul Middle Eastern Servant Humble
Abel, Abell Hebrew Breath Life of God
Abi, Abbey, Abbi, Abby Anglo-Saxon God's Will Secure in God
Abia, Abiah Hebrew God Is My Father Child of God
Abiel, Abielle Hebrew Child of God Heir of the Kingdom
Abigail, Abbigayle,
Abbigail, Abbygayle,
Abigael, Abigale Hebrew My Farther Rejoices Cherished of God
Abijah, Abija, Abiya,
Abiyah Hebrew Will of God Eternal
https://www.mykairos.org/docs/kt/names_meanings.pdf

There are 191 pages of examples of Names in different languages that have meanings. Some of which has has the words God and Father and they are not literally God the Father.

Good Night, friend,
Daniel
 
T

TheLearner

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#54
"1802) inscribed (to Samuel Miller) by “the author.” Lindley Murray is best known as “the father of English grammar.” But before he earned that title, he practiced law in New York. "

Who is the father of English?
By
Anastasia Koltai
-
August 11, 2018
0
3944

When we say that someone is “the father of _______”, we mean that they helped to found that subject.

One of the classic examples is the father of computer science, which is widely accepted to be Alan Turing. Turing created the first computer and helped the Allies understand the power of computing during World War II.


When it comes to the father of English, it is difficult to say. There is not a single person that helped found the English language. However, William Shakespeare is sometimes called the father of the English language. While he seemed to use several new words that did not exist before he wrote his plays, it is difficult to know whether he was truly the first person to use those words in context.

Some other people say that Geoffrey Chaucer is the father of English literature, because he wrote so much poetry during the Late Middle Ages. Some of his most famous works are “The Canterbury Tales”, which I coincidentally studied when I was in high school in my English class.
Still some other people call Lindley Murray the father of English grammar, because he was the first person to write down English grammar rules in 1975.
That being said, there is no single person that is said to be the father of English, the way that Turing is the father of computer science, Daniel Kahneman is the father of behavioral economics, or John Watson is the father of behavioral psychology.
English is simply too large a field with a history that stretches too far back to know for sure.
Geoffrey Chaucer, known as the Father of English literature.

https://www.myenglishteacher.eu/blog/who-is-the-father-of-english/
 
DavidTree

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JaumeJ said:
I did say it is a mystery. Because God teaches this in thge Old and the New Teastaments, I believe it. Do you already understand all the implications of us all being transformed to be exactly like Jesus Yeshua, not He but exactlay like He? I do not, another mysstery to be revealed in His time

Therefore, because He teaches this, and He does not lie, I believe Him. . All should be the same do nou not think?
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I AGREE because we SEE what GOD says in Genesis is the KEY

Let US make man in OUR IMAGE.......

God established Himself in the Lives of THREE in Genesis - His next move was to reveal Himself to Moses.

Exodus 3:14-15

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord God of your fathers,
the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Elohim Father
Elohim Son
Elohim Holy Spirit
 
CS1

CS1

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DavidTree said:
I AGREE because we SEE what GOD says in Genesis is the KEY

Let US make man in OUR IMAGE.......

God established Himself in the Lives of THREE in Genesis - His next move was to reveal Himself to Moses.

Exodus 3:14-15

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord God of your fathers,
the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Elohim Father
Elohim Son
Elohim Holy Spirit
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you know we do not only see God in the word of God Roman chapter says that we too know of His eternal existence Even the GodHead by The things He created. The Trinity is well seen yet not fully understood such as

Time, space, and matter. God can be apprehended but not fully Comprehended.

three revelations of God are General, Special, and Relationship.

General = His creation
Speical= His word
Relationship= salvation

The Trinity is a concept that helps us understand the Eternal Godhead yet even in that we are still limited to fully know all that God is. Half the story has yet to be told.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

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#58
DavidTree said:
I AGREE because we SEE what GOD says in Genesis is the KEY

Let US make man in OUR IMAGE.......

God established Himself in the Lives of THREE in Genesis - His next move was to reveal Himself to Moses.

Exodus 3:14-15

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord God of your fathers,
the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Elohim Father
Elohim Son
Elohim Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
We must never overstep what we truly know in relating to others of the faith what we are inclined to follow. The main aim is for us all to be perfect and this requires sthat work which God has begun in each of us.

We cannot help Him do this for He is perfecting us and we will be perfect and perfectly holy on His day. This, I believe , is what is being taughtin advance b y our Maker, Yahweh, when He said, "Come, let us make man in our image." This was not God talking to Angels it was Yahweh talking to Yaahhweh, (remember Yahweh cana be said I will be what I will be, so it is the three persons taking, yet they are One.) I will be What I will be.)

We, once we declare our Savior, are being made in His image.
 
DavidTree

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JaumeJ said:
We must never overstep what we truly know in relating to others of the faith what we are inclined to follow. The main aim is for us all to be perfect and this requires sthat work which God has begun in each of us.

We cannot help Him do this for He is perfecting us and we will be perfect and perfectly holy on His day. This, I believe , is what is being taughtin advance b y our Maker, Yahweh, when He said, "Come, let us make man in our image." This was not God talking to Angels it was Yahweh talking to Yaahhweh, (remember Yahweh cana be said I will be what I will be, so it is the three persons taking, yet they are One.) I will be What I will be.)

We, once we declare our Savior, are being made in His image.
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Amen
 
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