Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.

Pilgrimshope · Sep 19, 2021

I will attempt to explain the Trinity with the following things in mind.

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (John 4:24, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, James 3:9 (kjv), Romans 15:6, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:26-27).

With this in mind, I encourage the reader to interpret 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6.

That being said, there are distinctions between the members of the Trinity.

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) inhabiting eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.

The Son is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:24) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 john 1:7).

The Holy Ghost is the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4, John 7:39); after having lived a human life in the Person of the Son (see Luke 23:46); released to the Father in eternity from the human body of the Son; and who also descends into time in order to produce holy scripture (1 Peter 1:11) and to work within the church in order to win souls to Jesus Christ.

The Father, in the descending into time to take on an added nature of human flesh, did not VACATE ETERNITY.

So, when Jesus releases His Spirit (see John 14:7-11) back into eternity, there is now one God existing beside Himself in eternity; as there are two distinct Persons in the Father and the Holy Ghost who are infinite in nature.

The Son also being infinite in nature in His Deity; however in His humanity, which has received a glorified human body likened unto the angels (Matthew 22:30), He is of a finite nature and as He said, "The Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); while as concerning His Deity He is equal to the Father (John 5:18).

For I contend that the Son is the Son in the reality that there is a hypostatic union of the two natures of humanity and Deity.

I also contend that the Son was begotten in the incarnation (Luke 1:35); but that He ascended to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) in the Person of the Holy Ghost.

What does it say in context ?

“How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭3:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s mystery was that jew and gentile were partakers of the same gospel

Nehemiah6 · Sep 19, 2021

rayzor said:

Try to make an effort to study and learn the truth. I will not waste any further time on this.

justbyfaith · Sep 19, 2021

However, I am applying the verses as I have quoted them to my understanding of the mystery of the Trinity.

It is not necessarily a sin to take verses out of context.

Matthew, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, took Hosea 11:1 out of context when he applied, what originally applied to Israel, to Jesus Christ, in Matthew 2:15.

In 2 Corinthians 9:6, if you take it in its immediate context, it substantiates a "name-it-and-claim-it", "health-wealth" "word of faith" doctrine that we can plant financial seeds and can reap accordingly. But if you apply a verse not in its immediate context (Luke 8:11), you will come up with a more orthodox application; that if we sow the word bountifully, we will reap the fruit of the Spirit more bountifully (see also Galatians 6:7-8).

And, in John 19:37, John applies to Jesus on the Cross what is originally given as a prophecy of the 2nd coming of Christ (Zechariah 12:10).

re #21.

rayzor · Sep 19, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

Thanks but i don't need more time on this either.The are 3 gods and they are one god Elohim is plural

justbyfaith · Sep 19, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24); and there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

So, you would have to ask the question, Why was the Holy Ghost missing in this demonstration of the separateness in the Triune nature of God?

(let me just say that I do not believe that the members of the Trinity are separate but distinct; as to believe that they are separate would be a belief in Tritheism).

justbyfaith · Sep 19, 2021

I will say that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) who dwells within the heart of the Christian;

The Father (Ephesians 4:6)

Christ (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27)

And the Holy Ghost (2 Timothy 1:14).

Cabrillo · Sep 19, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

I disagree on one point the Son was always the Son but begotten means to by born in the flesh which happened around 3 a.d. through his mother Mary.

IMO, He existed as a person of the Trinity With the Father and Holy Spirit before he was born. He was manifested as a live human only to die for us. Our sins as a living species were so great only a living sacrifice was required by the Lord. His life paid the price.
a) Because he had never sinned
b) Because he had unlimited assets
c) Because Hes is, not was the Son of the living God

The Holy spirit has always existed also. Genesis 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Some believe they in more modern terms I've read have said that they are in union. Jesus prayed to the Father. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us as a comforter. Although Baptism of the Holy Spirit didn't happen till after he sent for or to it.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 19, 2021

Cabrillo said:

Christ was not merely "begotten". He was UNIQUELY BEGOTTEN. That is the meaning of the Greek monogenes, which is rendered as "only begotten" in the King James Bible. Since no mother was involved, this was a unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead. Thus His goings forth were "from everlasting" (from eternity past).

Micah 5:2 speaks of BOTH the incarnation of Christ as well as His eternal Sonship in the Godhead: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Christ was born in Bethlehem of Mary, but He was uniquely begotten of the Father before creation.

justbyfaith · Sep 20, 2021

I believe that the existence of the Son outside of time is His experience to the future of when He was begotten in Luke 1:35.

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Rom 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Isa 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus ascended to exist outside of time (Ephesians 4:10);

Prior to the incarnation He was none other than the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6).

For His incarnation was the result of a merging of the Holy Ghost and the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary (Matthew 1:20, Luke 1:35).

Please note that in saying these things, I am not denying that there are three distinct Persons within the Trinity.

For I acknowledge that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are distinct from each other and I can also identify these distinctions with holy scripture.

justbyfaith · Sep 20, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

So, your contention is that Christ was begotten of the Father in eternity. Therefore you would say that the Father is God and that the eternally begotten Son is a separate God from the Father.

Tell me, how many Gods is that?

I would encourage you to take into account James 2:19.

In my scenario, Jesus and the Father are the same God; I truly worship one God as the Bible says we would do well to do.

And I also do not deny the distinctions within the Trinity.

justbyfaith · Sep 20, 2021

Jesus' existence outside of time, while future to Him from when He was begotten in Luke 1:35, extends into eternity past.

p_rehbein · Sep 20, 2021

justbyfaith said:

No.

What you have done here is to deny the Holy Trinity.

GOD the Father: God OF man

God the Son: God AS man

God the Holy Spirit: God WITHIN man

Many people try their best to reduce it to a dichotomy and not a trichotomy. Not buying it.........but, hey............

Nehemiah6 · Sep 20, 2021

justbyfaith said:

This is the kind of commentary which comes from those who wish to fathom the TRIUNE GODHEAD with their human intelligence and reasoning.

But if you were told that that are many things in the universe which are BEYOND HUMAN REASON and BEYOND HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, and you accepted that, then you would also believe that there are not three gods, but only one God. Yet He exists as three divine Persons according to Scripture. This is the Mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Col 2:2). So you either call yourself a Christian and believe the Bible, or call yourself something else and disbelieve it.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [Note: 1 John 5:7 KJV. You will not find this verse in modern versions which were deliberately corrupted]
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [Note: Mt 28:19. You will find many Anti-Trinitarians falsely claiming that this verse was added to Scripture. That is a blatant lie.]

A WARNING TO ANTI-TRINITARIANS: Unless you believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, as well as fully God, and that God is indeed Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you cannot be saved.

justbyfaith · Sep 20, 2021

p_rehbein said:

No, I have not denied the Trinity.

For I believe that there are definite distinctions between the Persons of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24); and there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). And the Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).

The Spirit of Jesus is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11, Ephesians 4:4); and Jesus released Him back to the Father who did not vacate eternity when He descended to become a Man. So, God exists beside Himself in eternity as the pre-incarnate Christ, in Spirit, exists side-by-side with the after-incarnate Christ, in Spirit, who is given the title of Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus as He is given back to the Father (Luke 23:46). As such, He has lived a human life; and He understands humanity; for He has tasted death for every man. While the 1st Person of the Trinity, as He dwells in eternity, has never been human. He will become human and has become human in the incarnation as He, from the perspective of His own experience, has not yet descended to take on an added nature of human flesh. From our perspective He has already done this; but from His perspective he has not yet done this; for He lives one eternal moment and then descends to take on an added nature of human flesh.

The Son is distinct from the Father in that He is come in the flesh. The Father is distinct from the Son in that He is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh.

The difference is in the hypostatic union. That added nature of human flesh means that the Son has a different personality than the Father and is therefore a different Person. But they are the same Spirit / essence.

The Holy Ghost is a distinct, 3rd Person. He is the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11) as He was released to the Father in eternity and who also descends into time to accomplish His work, of producing holy scripture and of producing fruit in the life of the believer. And again, the Holy Ghost has lived a human life (Luke 23:46) and so He is qualified to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God (Romans 8:26-27); as He does indeed dwell within man (2 Timothy 1:14).

However, the Father and Christ equally dwell within every believer (Ephesians 4:6, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27). And there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

So, I hope that you can see that while I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in order to avoid the heresy of Tritheism, that I also do not deny the distinctions within the Trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are distinct from one another; and this is in perfect conjunction with the Trinitarian creeds. While the Father is a Lord, the Son is a Lord, and the Holy Ghost is a Lord, we are forbidden by Trinitarian doctrine to say that there are three Lords. I conclude that there is a sense in which these are the same Lord.

And I contend that it is in this sense: that the Father is a Spirit without flesh and that the Son is the same Spirit dwelling in flesh.

Again, the distinction between the members of the Trinity has to do with the incarnation and even the hypostatic union. For the Father is not come in the flesh except in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Consider also that those who deny what I am preaching have to change the wording of Isaiah 9:6, not once, but twice, in order to make it fit their theology. The fact of the matter is that Jesus shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" and that the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this.

Consider also the following.

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:1, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

justbyfaith · Sep 20, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

I believe that there is one God who exists in three distinct Persons according to holy scripture.

But I contend with you that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). Why does the apostle Paul give us this information?

Consider that God wants us to use our human reasoning to determine doctrine.

Consider.

Isa 1:18, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

justbyfaith · Sep 21, 2021

p_rehbein said:

No, I have not denied the Trinity.

For I believe that there are definite distinctions between the Persons of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24); and there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). And the Holy Ghost is also the Spirit (John 7:39).

The Spirit of Jesus is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11, Ephesians 4:4); and Jesus released Him back to the Father who did not vacate eternity when He descended to become a Man. So, God exists beside Himself in eternity as the pre-incarnate Christ, in Spirit, exists side-by-side with the after-incarnate Christ, in Spirit, who is given the title of Holy Ghost.

The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jesus as He is given back to the Father (Luke 23:46). As such, He has lived a human life; and He understands humanity; for He has tasted death for every man. While the 1st Person of the Trinity, as He dwells in eternity, has never been human. He will become human and has become human in the incarnation as He, from the perspective of His own experience, has not yet descended to take on an added nature of human flesh. From our perspective He has already done this; but from His perspective he has not yet done this; for He lives one eternal moment and then descends to take on an added nature of human flesh.

The Son is distinct from the Father in that He is come in the flesh. The Father is distinct from the Son in that He is a Spirit inhabiting eternity without flesh.

The difference is in the hypostatic union. That added nature of human flesh means that the Son has a different personality than the Father and is therefore a different Person. But they are the same Spirit / essence.

The Holy Ghost is a distinct, 3rd Person. He is the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11) as He was released to the Father in eternity and who also descends into time to accomplish His work, of producing holy scripture and of producing fruit in the life of the believer. And again, the Holy Ghost has lived a human life (Luke 23:46) and so He is qualified to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God (Romans 8:26-27); as He does indeed dwell within man (2 Timothy 1:14).

However, the Father and Christ equally dwell within every believer (Ephesians 4:6, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27). And there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

So, I hope that you can see that while I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in order to avoid the heresy of Tritheism, that I also do not deny the distinctions within the Trinity. I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are distinct from one another; and this is in perfect conjunction with the Trinitarian creeds. While the Father is a Lord, the Son is a Lord, and the Holy Ghost is a Lord, we are forbidden by Trinitarian doctrine to say that there are three Lords. I conclude that there is a sense in which these are the same Lord.

And I contend that it is in this sense: that the Father is a Spirit without flesh and that the Son is the same Spirit dwelling in flesh.

Again, the distinction between the members of the Trinity has to do with the incarnation and even the hypostatic union. For the Father is not come in the flesh except in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Consider also that those who deny what I am preaching have to change the wording of Isaiah 9:6, not once, but twice, in order to make it fit their theology. The fact of the matter is that Jesus shall have the name of "The everlasting Father" and that the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall perform this.

Consider also the following.

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Jhn 14:1, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

For I consider that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father.

GRACE_ambassador · Sep 21, 2021

finite cannot understand Infinite, so, just humbly accepts it, by faith, eh?

TheLearner · Sep 21, 2021

justbyfaith said:

I am not sure I understand what you wrote after "The everlasting Father". But, I know from my Hebrew training in Jewish Temple School that the phrase means God as Creator, source of eternity and that his nature is eternal.

For a Child hath been born to us, a Son hath been given to us, and the princely power is on his shoulder, and He doth call His name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace (YLT)..

Holy Spirit pre-existed the incarnation as a person.
. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30

F. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit
1. The Holy Spirit is "another Comforter": John 14:16; compare 1
John 2:1.
2. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit: John 15:26; 16:7.
3. The Holy Spirit exhibits humility in relation to, and seeks to
glorify, Jesus (John 16:13-14).
4. The Son and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons in
Matt. 28:19.
5. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus: Luke 3:22
6. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
a. 2 Cor. 3:17: the Spirit is here called "Lord" in the
sense of being Yahweh or God, not Jesus (cf. v. 16,
citing Ex. 34:34; cf. v. 17 in the Revised English
Bible); note Acts 28:25-27, cf. Isa. 6:8-10.
b. 1 Cor. 15:45: Jesus is "a life-giving Spirit," not in
the sense that He is the Holy Spirit whom He sent at
Pentecost, but in the sense that He is the glorified
God-man; and as God He is Spirit by nature. All
three persons of the Trinity are Spirit, though there
are not three divine Spirits; and only one person is
designated "the Holy Spirit."
c. Rom. 8:27, 34: the fact that two persons intercede
for us is consistent with the fact that we have two
Advocates (John 14:16; Rom. 8:26; 1 John 2:1).
d. John 14:18: Jesus here refers to His appearances
to the disciples after the resurrection (compare
14:19), not to the coming of the Spirit.
e. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both involved in
various activities: raising Jesus (John 2:19-19-22);
Rom. 8:9-11), raising the dead (John 5:21; 6:39-40,
44, 54, Rom. 8:9-11), dwelling in the believer (John
14:16; 2 Cor. 13:5; Col. 1:27), interceding for the
believer (Rom. 8:26; Heb. 7:25), sanctifying
believers (Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:2), etc. These works
prove that the two persons are both God, but not
that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
G. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

TheLearner · Sep 21, 2021

1. The Father sent the Holy Spirit: John 14:15; 15:26.
2. The Holy Spirit intercedes with the Father for us: Rom. 8:26-27.
3. The Father and the Holy Spirit are distinguished as two persons
in Matt. 28:19.
4. Is the Father the Holy Spirit?
a. Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35: It is argued that the Holy
Spirit is the Father of the incarnate Son of God; this
argument ignores the fact that the "conception" is
not a product of physical union between a man and
a woman!
b. The Father and the Holy Spirit are both said to be
active in various activities; the resurrection of Jesus
(Gal. 1:1; Rom. 8:11), comforting Christians (2 Cor.
1:3-4; John 14:26), sanctifying Christians (Jude 1; 1
Pet. 1:2), etc. The most these facts prove is that the
two work together; they do not prove the two are one person.

TheLearner · Sep 21, 2021

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

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