How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

HI again, have a blessed day at work!


Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Those in verse 5:11?

God bless!

HI again, have a blessed day at work!


Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Those in verse 5:11?

God bless!

The thousands upon thousands are the angels and the beasts and the 24 Elders is with them. This is just what i read from it - i am not saying any more then that for i do not 'add or take away' from scripture. If you see the 24 as representing something or somebody else, there should be more scripture that points to that.
If you have those scriptures please share with me as i am always open to what God has said.
IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24

Remembered something very similiar in Daniel

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Not sure what or who is all included in that "ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him"
but they are about to be judged....

Daniel ch 7 starts with him having dreams and visions vs 1-14.

Daniel 7:15 begins the interpretation of the dreams and visions.

I want to focus on vs 21 and 22:

A.) I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
B.) until the Ancient of Days came,
C.) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High,
D.) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What do you see here - as it is stated 'no adding or taking away' please - thank you

What is the judgment that was made in favor of the saints?

Daniel 7:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Biblically speaking (which is what we're on about, right?), the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His RETURN to the earth (i.e. Rev19) and what takes place in such a context:

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom," not "TO BE WED"... THEN the meal [G347] (this fully agrees with the distinction between Rev19:7 [re: the MARRIAGE itself, pertaining SOLELY TO the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"] and the distinct Rev19:9 [re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" pertaining to the INVITED "Guests [PLURAL]" whom He is NOT MARRYING!])... where this Lk passage is parallel to Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse (NO RAPTURE is being spoken of in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, as that is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering there, AT ALL!);


--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over ten cities"... and "over five cities"; where also this Lk passage is parallel to the Matt25:14-30 passage in His Olivet Discourse... and ditto what I said above, about that







I see that you have no qualms about changing out words to suit your own view of things (repeatedly).




--Zech14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Daniel 7:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

That basically matches what we see in Rev ie: no pretrib rapture of saints/the church. They are intended to suffer the persecutions of great trib and many shall be killed.

Do you know what this is: "and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High"

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

As Isaiah said "The punishment that brought us peach was upon Him."

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

OK, in purple you have - judgment was given to the saints of the most High;

What exactly do you think the judgment was/is/will be? or could it be more then one thing?

i have one thing in mind specifically and it is a judgment

Do you understand that the span of time of Daniel 7 is measured in centuries?

And that - most of it is past history?

And that - the phrase 'Ancient of days' is referring to the Father?


Okay. What are you thinking?

Daniel ch 7 starts with him having dreams and visions vs 1-14.

Daniel 7:15 begins the interpretation of the dreams and visions.

I want to focus on vs 21 and 22:

A.) I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
B.) until the Ancient of Days came,
C.) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High,
D.) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What do you see here - as it is stated 'no adding or taking away' please - thank you

What is the judgment that was made in favor of the saints?

For the Saints to possess the kingdom of course...

The thousands upon thousands are the angels and the beasts and the 24 Elders is with them. This is just what i read from it - i am not saying any more then that for i do not 'add or take away' from scripture. If you see the 24 as representing something or somebody else, there should be more scripture that points to that.
If you have those scriptures please share with me as i am always open to what God has said.

IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24

Good morning Brother,

YES, but what comes BEFORE that and in AGREEMENT with that is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

This Saints will not possess the kingdom until they receive their NEW GLORIFIED RESURRECTED BODIES.
The last enemy to be defeated is Death - 1 Corinthians 15

The book of Daniel agrees with Matt 24 - 25 agrees with 1 Thess ch 4 agrees with 2 Thess ch 2 agrees with 1 John 2:18 agrees with Revelation.

Order of Scripture
woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

Absolutely no way they are a literal 24 it is a symbolic 24.

Read Revelation 5:8-10. These passages clearly identify this group as the Christians of "all kindred and tongues and peoples and nations". There's no way you can obtain 24 individuals out of a group like that.

Rev 5:9
"For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God BY THY BLOOD"......(CHRISTIANS!)
Rev 5:10
"and hast made us unto God kings and priests"

The 24 elders are unquestionably the same group of people spoken of in Revelation 1:6....."hath made us kings and priests".