How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

HI again, have a blessed day at work!


Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Those in verse 5:11?

God bless!

HI again, have a blessed day at work!


Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Those in verse 5:11?

God bless!

The thousands upon thousands are the angels and the beasts and the 24 Elders is with them. This is just what i read from it - i am not saying any more then that for i do not 'add or take away' from scripture. If you see the 24 as representing something or somebody else, there should be more scripture that points to that.
If you have those scriptures please share with me as i am always open to what God has said.

IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24

 

[walknlight]

The thousands upon thousands are the angels and the beasts and the 24 Elders is with them. This is just what i read from it - i am not saying any more then that for i do not 'add or take away' from scripture. If you see the 24 as representing something or somebody else, there should be more scripture that points to that.
If you have those scriptures please share with me as i am always open to what God has said.
IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24

Remembered something very similiar in Daniel

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Not sure what or who is all included in that "ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him"
but they are about to be judged....

 

[DavidTree]

Remembered something very similiar in Daniel

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Not sure what or who is all included in that "ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him"
but they are about to be judged....

Daniel ch 7 starts with him having dreams and visions vs 1-14.

Daniel 7:15 begins the interpretation of the dreams and visions.

I want to focus on vs 21 and 22:

A.) I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
B.) until the Ancient of Days came,
C.) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High,
D.) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What do you see here - as it is stated 'no adding or taking away' please - thank you

What is the judgment that was made in favor of the saints?

 

[GaryA]

Daniel ch 7 starts with him having dreams and visions vs 1-14.

Daniel 7:15 begins the interpretation of the dreams and visions.

I want to focus on vs 21 and 22:

A.) I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
B.) until the Ancient of Days came,
C.) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High,
D.) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What do you see here - as it is stated 'no adding or taking away' please - thank you

What is the judgment that was made in favor of the saints?

Daniel 7:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

 

[ewq1938]

That basically matches what we see in Rev ie: no pretrib rapture of saints/the church. They are intended to suffer the persecutions of great trib and many shall be killed.

Daniel 7:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

 

[DavidTree]

Biblically speaking (which is what we're on about, right?), the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) speaks ONLY of His RETURN to the earth (i.e. Rev19) and what takes place in such a context:

--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom," not "TO BE WED"... THEN the meal [G347] (this fully agrees with the distinction between Rev19:7 [re: the MARRIAGE itself, pertaining SOLELY TO the "Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"] and the distinct Rev19:9 [re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" pertaining to the INVITED "Guests [PLURAL]" whom He is NOT MARRYING!])... where this Lk passage is parallel to Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse (NO RAPTURE is being spoken of in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, as that is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering there, AT ALL!);


--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over ten cities"... and "over five cities"; where also this Lk passage is parallel to the Matt25:14-30 passage in His Olivet Discourse... and ditto what I said above, about that







I see that you have no qualms about changing out words to suit your own view of things (repeatedly).




--Zech14:4 - "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Only one Second Coming of Christ - When He Returns His first Desire is the First Resurrection to be gathered with Him in the air.
Then He descends once He has completed the First Resurrection.

Only one Second Coming of Christ - Scipture cannot lie

There is a judgement God has waiting for you and all who "add to and take away from His words."

 

[DavidTree]

Daniel 7:

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever. 19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. 28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

Do you know what this is: "and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High"

 

[Ahwatukee]

That basically matches what we see in Rev ie: no pretrib rapture of saints/the church. They are intended to suffer the persecutions of great trib and many shall be killed.

Won't happen, because that time period is the time of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which the church is not appointed to suffer. That said, the church will be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

Jesus already took upon himself the wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who belong to Christ.

As Isaiah said "The punishment that brought us peach was upon Him."

 

[GaryA]

Do you know what this is: "and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High"

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

 

[DavidTree]

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

Ok

 

[DavidTree]

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

OK, in purple you have - judgment was given to the saints of the most High;

What exactly do you think the judgment was/is/will be? or could it be more then one thing?

i have one thing in mind specifically and it is a judgment

 

[GaryA]

As Isaiah said "The punishment that brought us peach was upon Him."

Wow, I never knew that was where 'peach' came from...

hahaha

 

[DavidTree]

Did you miss the point of my post entirely?

Look at the purple-colored text in verse 22 very carefully.

Then, read again all of the green-colored text.

GaryA, i apologize - i skip read long passages - OK i see the green judgements - excellent

There is one judgment in there that is silent, and to me, the most important and is part of the Green highlights from you.
Thank You

 

[GaryA]

OK, in purple you have - judgment was given to the saints of the most High;

What exactly do you think the judgment was/is/will be? or could it be more then one thing?

Do you understand that the span of time of Daniel 7 is measured in centuries?

And that - most of it is past history?

And that - the phrase 'Ancient of days' is referring to the Father?

i have one thing in mind specifically and it is a judgment

Okay. What are you thinking?

 

[DavidTree]

Do you understand that the span of time of Daniel 7 is measured in centuries?

And that - most of it is past history?

And that - the phrase 'Ancient of days' is referring to the Father?


Okay. What are you thinking?

What is the Greatest Judgment next to and connected to Salvation through Christ?
The RESURRECTION
The Resurrection is the Judgment upon Death

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?

 

[cv5]

Daniel ch 7 starts with him having dreams and visions vs 1-14.

Daniel 7:15 begins the interpretation of the dreams and visions.

I want to focus on vs 21 and 22:

A.) I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
B.) until the Ancient of Days came,
C.) and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High,
D.) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

What do you see here - as it is stated 'no adding or taking away' please - thank you

What is the judgment that was made in favor of the saints?

For the Saints to possess the kingdom of course...

 

[DavidTree]

For the Saints to possess the kingdom of course...

Good morning Brother,

YES, but what comes BEFORE that and in AGREEMENT with that is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

This Saints will not possess the kingdom until they receive their NEW GLORIFIED RESURRECTED BODIES.
The last enemy to be defeated is Death - 1 Corinthians 15

The book of Daniel agrees with Matt 24 - 25 agrees with 1 Thess ch 4 agrees with 2 Thess ch 2 agrees with 1 John 2:18 agrees with Revelation.

Order of Scripture
woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

 

[cv5]

The thousands upon thousands are the angels and the beasts and the 24 Elders is with them. This is just what i read from it - i am not saying any more then that for i do not 'add or take away' from scripture. If you see the 24 as representing something or somebody else, there should be more scripture that points to that.
If you have those scriptures please share with me as i am always open to what God has said.

IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24

Absolutely no way they are a literal 24 it is a symbolic 24.

Read Revelation 5:8-10. These passages clearly identify this group as the Christians of "all kindred and tongues and peoples and nations". There's no way you can obtain 24 individuals out of a group like that.

Rev 5:9
"For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God BY THY BLOOD"......(CHRISTIANS!)
Rev 5:10
"and hast made us unto God kings and priests"

The 24 elders are unquestionably the same group of people spoken of in Revelation 1:6....."hath made us kings and priests".

 

[cv5]

Good morning Brother,

YES, but what comes BEFORE that and in AGREEMENT with that is the FIRST RESURRECTION.

This Saints will not possess the kingdom until they receive their NEW GLORIFIED RESURRECTED BODIES.
The last enemy to be defeated is Death - 1 Corinthians 15

The book of Daniel agrees with Matt 24 - 25 agrees with 1 Thess ch 4 agrees with 2 Thess ch 2 agrees with 1 John 2:18 agrees with Revelation.

Order of Scripture
woven throughout His Word
Clear to See if you bend the knee
not to me or other men
but to God who holds the Eternal Pen

I have followed many many of these pretrib threads. My conclusion?

The pre-tribbers win hands down. No contest. Every single time resoundingly. In fact, the threads are helpful because they expose the post-tribbers to scrutiny and demonstrates that they are holding an empty bag.

 

[DavidTree]

Absolutely no way they are a literal 24 it is a symbolic 24.

Read Revelation 5:8-10. These passages clearly identify this group as the Christians of "all kindred and tongues and peoples and nations". There's no way you can obtain 24 individuals out of a group like that.

Rev 5:9
"For thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God BY THY BLOOD"......(CHRISTIANS!)
Rev 5:10
"and hast made us unto God kings and priests"

The 24 elders are unquestionably the same group of people spoken of in Revelation 1:6....."hath made us kings and priests".

Well this is why i attached IMHO to the 24 being a literal 24.

i would not say that the 24 are "unquestionably" the same group as Rev 1:6. In fact it is more "unquestionably" that they are not the 24 Elders.

These 24 Elders are recorded in Scripture and It clearly tells us of Twelve - the Twelve Apostles

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt 19:28

The other 12 Elders i will not give a definitive answer on but they are in Scripture.

But i am OPEN for His Business and please share Scripture that would directly link the 24 ELDERS in HEAVEN to being more then a literal 24.

We, His Body are a Kingdom of kings and priests unto God - Agree

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.