How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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I don't believe it is always a reference to a 24hr period. And I don't think The Day of The Lord has to be one 24hr day either.
I see the coming of Messiah as a process with several elements.
There is not enough caffiene in the world to get me through all of TDW's posts!
I see the coming of Messiah as a process with several elements.
There is not enough caffiene in the world to get me through all of TDW's posts!
Good day, CS1,
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your post above. There are two groups listed in Revelation 7. The first is the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of literal Israel with Dan being replaced by Ephraim. The second group states that they will be a multitude which no one can count from every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes this group Gentile believers.
They are two separately defined groups, one from the twelve tribes of Israel with the specific number of 144,000 and Gentile believers whose number is too large to count. It always amazes me when people interpret them as being the same group, which requires ignoring the details given regarding who they are and their individual numbers.
That said, it is the group from every nation, people, tribe and language which no man can count, who are those saints who will come out of the great tribulation.
If you can except it, the Male Child which the Woman of Revelation 12 gives symbolic birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000. That being so, the Male Child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne around the same time as Satan and his angels are cast to the earth, which is in the middle of the seven years.
Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your post above. There are two groups listed in Revelation 7. The first is the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of literal Israel with Dan being replaced by Ephraim. The second group states that they will be a multitude which no one can count from every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes this group Gentile believers.
They are two separately defined groups, one from the twelve tribes of Israel with the specific number of 144,000 and Gentile believers whose number is too large to count. It always amazes me when people interpret them as being the same group, which requires ignoring the details given regarding who they are and their individual numbers.
That said, it is the group from every nation, people, tribe and language which no man can count, who are those saints who will come out of the great tribulation.
If you can except it, the Male Child which the Woman of Revelation 12 gives symbolic birth to, is a collective name representing the 144,000. That being so, the Male Child/144,000 will be caught up to God's throne around the same time as Satan and his angels are cast to the earth, which is in the middle of the seven years.
Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Self explanatory.
Do you think these are pre-trib raptured Saints?
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Self explanatory.
Do you think these are pre-trib raptured Saints?
2 Thess ch 2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us,
as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
The Apostle John said the SAME thing:
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18
Our LORD Jesus said the SAME thing:
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.a
He who has an ear, let him hear:
“If anyone is destined for captivity,
into captivity he will go;
if anyone is to die by the sword,
by the sword he must be killed.”
Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.
Daniel said the SAME thing:
As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them,
until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.
Matt 24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Prophet Daniel, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle John all say the SAME Truth - no pre-trib rapture.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us,
as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
The Apostle John said the SAME thing:
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18
Our LORD Jesus said the SAME thing:
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain.a
He who has an ear, let him hear:
“If anyone is destined for captivity,
into captivity he will go;
if anyone is to die by the sword,
by the sword he must be killed.”
Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.
Daniel said the SAME thing:
As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them,
until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.
Matt 24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Prophet Daniel, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle John all say the SAME Truth - no pre-trib rapture.
First thing i want to share with you is this - i appreciate your love and faith in Christ - we are family.
a little more - i am working and may not be able to respond quickly - i also tend to give very short answers so bear with me if i leave out details which we can assess as we go along - thank you
a little more - i am working and may not be able to respond quickly - i also tend to give very short answers so bear with me if i leave out details which we can assess as we go along - thank you
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Who are these Elders. THAT is the question. They are the raptured Church caught up in chapter 5...! Before the breaking of the seals.
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 - And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Who are these Elders. THAT is the question. They are the raptured Church caught up in chapter 5...! Before the breaking of the seals.
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 - And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
HI again, have a blessed day at work!
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Those in verse 5:11?
God bless!
Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Those in verse 5:11?
God bless!
Who are these Elders. THAT is the question. They are the raptured Church caught up in chapter 5...! Before the breaking of the seals.
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 - Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 - And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:11 - And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
You know this - 1 Thess 4 = No First Resurrection = NO Rapture
The First Resurrection cannot take place until the the 5th Seal is Completed.
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld.
And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.
Rev 6
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Those ARE the Trib Saints seen in heaven in ch 7......
Those who come to faith DURING the tribulation.
Rev 7:9-12
After these things (THE SEALING OF THE 144,000) I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Those who come to faith DURING the tribulation.
Rev 7:9-12
After these things (THE SEALING OF THE 144,000) I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
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IMHO, the 24 Elders are a literal 24
Yes, it is their spirits - not their Resurrected bodies - remember what the word says when we die...
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
Yes, it is their spirits - not their Resurrected bodies - remember what the word says when we die...
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.