Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?

Really good question. If people are gathered in the name of Jesus, He is already there. Very often, the intent of "worship" is to please people, not God. Brian Houston was asked why Hillsong was so successful. He said, "We scratch where people itch". That sounds a lot like ear tickling to me.

Music very often stimulates the soul rather than the spirit. The born again are spirit beings. Those who worship God should do so in spirit and in truth, not in banal songs that sound good but have little or no real content.

A number of leading Pentecostals are predicting a "fourth wave", a supposed revival of the Holy Spirit. The first "wave" was genuine but infected with the counterfeit, especially Azusa Street. The second wave was the Charismatic movement in the 70's. There was a lot that was real, but it led to spiritual pride and ended up nowhere. The 90's gave rise to the "Toronto Blessing". It is 100% fake and spread like the plague.

One of the consequences of relying on the manifestations of the Holy Spirit alone, even if genuine, is a lack of sound teaching. The TB flourished because too many people have no real personal relationship with God. They rely on the Pastor to live for them. Pastors are OK with this because a compliant flock is easy to manage. But if the Pastor gets deceived, so do most of his people.

Ignorance is not bliss. It is dangerous. God's people are still destroyed for lack of knowledge. It does not have to be this way. "Test everything and hold fast to that which is good". "Test the spirits......" Blindly following the Pastor is the exact opposite.

I totally agree. God came down of His own doing.

But show me an example of the New Testament church "calling down" the Spirit for 45 minutes to an hour. Perhaps you've researched this.

If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....

Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.

Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.

That is not even the issue. Jesus said that where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. And where Christ is present, the Holy Spirit and the Father are also present. So there is no need to call down the Spirit. Christians need to simply thank God during worship for the fact that Christ -- indeed the triune Godhead -- is ALREADY PRESENT with them.

The Catholics make a big deal out of the "real presence" of Christ in the Eucharist. While the Catholic Eucharist is unbiblical, the real presence of Christ definitely is not, particularly at the Lord's Supper (clearly different from the Eucharist). Acts 4 gives us a glimpse of the presence of the Spirit while Christians were praying earnestly, and Acts 13:1-4 shows us that the Holy Spirit during worship was already present and commissioned Paul and Barnabbas.

1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

As to how Charismatics and/or Pentecostals worship, that is nobody else's business. If they choose to call down the Holy Spirit, it is up to their pastors and elders to teach them Bible truth. They will give account for their worship as others will for theirs.

I have no problem with praising and worshipping God. It's the conjuring, or calling down of the Holy Spirit aspect I object to. The Holy Spirit doesn't need to be conjured to "show up."

What's really going on is a kind of evocation ritual to relax a person and release emotions that put them in a receptive state—one in which they're more open to suggestion. This is exactly what happens in hypnotism.

By the way, I never said the word Pentecostal. It does happen in Pentecostal churches but it also happens in many others.

It is beyond me why you would suggest that The Holy Spirit can be manipulated by conjuring.
And why accuse your Christian brothers & sisiters of such a thing? (as if it were possible)
Entering into his presence isn't a state of human emotion or will.

Never mind then, just ignore me.

If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....

Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.

Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.

If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....

Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.

Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

When the Holy Spirit is prayed to & worshipped more than the Lord whose name is above every name, that is one of the signs that falling away has begun in that church.

They mostly will sing "me" songs that do nothing but lift themselves up as a great people but rarely will lift up the Lord. They will sing about all the things that God does for them.

I am convinced that when they sing "Let your fire fall" they do not know what they're asking.

I was talking with a brother, who was also a close friend at the time, about the gifts of the Spirit. In short, I was confirming that they were for the saints today. He shook his head, looked down, and mumbled, "Oh man."

I asked, "What's up?"

He told me he used to go to a charismatic church where it was demanded of members to always be "on fire for the Lord". You had to demonstrate you were filled with the Holy Spirit at all times: raising your hands during "praise and worship", speaking in tongues, etc. Now, by themselves, I have no issues with raising one's hands during songs or speaking in tongues, but he described a culture in which it was required to show you "had the Holy Spirit" (his words). It frankly wore him out. He felt that he could never measure up to the standards of the church (one of the largest in our area, by the way).

I told him, "I wold have left such a gathering as well."

I have since helped people come out of such cultures. The damage done to them was severe: some were spanked by their parents for not raising their hands during the songs and sent to bed without supper, cursed by church leaders for questioning the pastor or his message, told they would die young if they didn't adhere to church doctrine, etc. One man told me of a time when the pastor asked his mother to divorce her husband because he would not tithe a parcel of land to the church. I could write pages.

My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.

Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.

If you are denying that The Holy Spirit is God you are a heretic.
You shouldn't be accusing anyone else of falling away.

When the Holy Spirit is prayed to & worshipped more than the Lord whose name is above every name, that is one of the signs that falling away has begun in that church.

I hear ya, brother. Yes, there is a problem. But it's not something that can be fixed due to the spiritual timeline we're in.
Let me explain. We are in the last hours of the last days. The Bible tells us that in the last days there's going to be a great falling away(spiritual apostasy) of the church, and because of this many christians have changed the way they believe, worship, etc.

Because of this, some Pentecostal & most charismatics sing what's called "ME" songs that praises the congregation more than The Lord Himself.

Hillsong, Bethel, Steve Furtick, and some others teach a lot of false doctrine, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they worship incorrectly since Jesus teaches that we will know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Bad trees can only produce bad fruit. Yet MANY christians listen & sing bad songs from bad trees because they don't check out the church's doctrine!
Yes, they are conjuring spirits down, but not the Holy Spirit! Yes, they produce a feeling & bring forth fruit, but nothing holy! They mostly will sing "me" songs that do nothing but lift themselves up as a great people but rarely will lift up the Lord. They will sing about all the things that God does for them. This brings forth a feeling of euphoria that will make them feel justified & holy when all that feeling is is a feeling that goes away when it's over. This is why it goes on for a long time.
We have said nothing yet about the light shows, provocative dance, & sometimes sexy styles of singing by the women leaders.

When true praise & worship take place, God needs no such things to show forth His glory!

When it has to be pumped up with theactrical dances , light shows, special music, & spasmodic movements it's because it is fake.

God's people are led by the Holy Spirit, & when He moves among us, we need nothing else, for the Lord is our All in All. He does the rest, not us.

When the Holy Spirit is prayed to & worshipped more than the Lord whose name is above every name, that is one of the signs that falling away has begun in that church.

If you are denying that The Holy Spirit is God you are a heretic.
You shouldn't be accusing anyone else of falling away.




Just as the people of The Lord God have always done

At many charismatic churches, praise and worship can last from 30 to 45 minutes or even longer. The supposed purpose of this is to "call down" the Holy Spirit. But does the Holy Spirit really need to be called down, or is this just a way to get people into an emotional state of pleasure and receptivity? Does this sort of thing honor God or are we honoring the creature more than the Creator?

One song that comes to mind is Kari Jobe's "Holy Spirit." The reason I remember it is because the lyrics are clearly an invitation to the Spirit to fall, or come down. Here's the live video.


Virtually every charismatic church and especially megachurches use music to get the audience "in the mood." Maybe we should consider who or what is actually being conjured by this.