Is modern praise and worship simply a form of conjuring?
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I totally agree. God came down of His own doing.
But show me an example of the New Testament church "calling down" the Spirit for 45 minutes to an hour. Perhaps you've researched this.
But show me an example of the New Testament church "calling down" the Spirit for 45 minutes to an hour. Perhaps you've researched this.
I am ok with singing songs that invite the Holy Spirit or praying to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
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If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
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If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
What's really going on is a kind of evocation ritual to relax a person and release emotions that put them in a receptive state—one in which they're more open to suggestion. This is exactly what happens in hypnotism.
By the way, I never said the word Pentecostal. It does happen in Pentecostal churches but it also happens in many others.
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This is true, that whenever we gather together in the name of God, Jesus is there. But as a praise and worship leader, I find that asking God to manifest his presence is something different. I've found that sometimes it was the will of God to stall the whole service so that his presence would "fall". And when it did, people got exactly what they needed. Whether it was the love of God revealed to them in a new way, or healing, etc. I think it's beautiful to be able to welcome the Holy Spirit. Not just call him down, because he is already there. But to tell Him that He's welcome in his full glory and lordship to do whatever he wants.
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"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."—Matthew 18:20
Is Jesus talking about His literal presence among them? No, He's already present in Spirit where two or three are gathered in His name.
I'll just throw this out there. Perhaps the reason people feel the need to call down the Holy Spirit is because the Jesus they worship is a different Jesus than the one who said the words in Matthew 18:20.
Is Jesus talking about His literal presence among them? No, He's already present in Spirit where two or three are gathered in His name.
I'll just throw this out there. Perhaps the reason people feel the need to call down the Holy Spirit is because the Jesus they worship is a different Jesus than the one who said the words in Matthew 18:20.
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S
If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
-
2
- Show all
If Pentecostals praising him for 45min rubs you the wrong way.....
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
Wait until you get to heaven and there are thousands upon thousands of angels & humans praising him for hours on end.
Where day & night the living creatures never stop saying "Holy Holy Holy Lord" and the elders fall to the ground in worship
- you might really be offended.
Praising God in assembly is part of being in relationship with him.
I hear ya, brother. Yes, there is a problem. But it's not something that can be fixed due to the spiritual timeline we're in.
Let me explain. We are in the last hours of the last days. The Bible tells us that in the last days there's going to be a great falling away(spiritual apostasy) of the church, and because of this many christians have changed the way they believe, worship, etc.
Because of this, some Pentecostal & most charismatics sing what's called "ME" songs that praises the congregation more than The Lord Himself.
Hillsong, Bethel, Steve Furtick, and some others teach a lot of false doctrine, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they worship incorrectly since Jesus teaches that we will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Bad trees can only produce bad fruit. Yet MANY christians listen & sing bad songs from bad trees because they don't check out the church's doctrine!
Yes, they are conjuring spirits down, but not the Holy Spirit! Yes, they produce a feeling & bring forth fruit, but nothing holy! They mostly will sing "me" songs that do nothing but lift themselves up as a great people but rarely will lift up the Lord. They will sing about all the things that God does for them. This brings forth a feeling of euphoria that will make them feel justified & holy when all that feeling is is a feeling that goes away when it's over. This is why it goes on for a long time.
We have said nothing yet about the light shows, provocative dance, & sometimes sexy styles of singing by the women leaders.
When true praise & worship take place, God needs no such things to show forth His glory!
When it has to be pumped up with theactrical dances , light shows, special music, & spasmodic movements it's because it is fake.
God's people are led by the Holy Spirit, & when He moves among us, we need nothing else, for the Lord is our All in All. He does the rest, not us.
When the Holy Spirit is prayed to & worshipped more than the Lord whose name is above every name, that is one of the signs that falling away has begun in that church.
Let me explain. We are in the last hours of the last days. The Bible tells us that in the last days there's going to be a great falling away(spiritual apostasy) of the church, and because of this many christians have changed the way they believe, worship, etc.
Because of this, some Pentecostal & most charismatics sing what's called "ME" songs that praises the congregation more than The Lord Himself.
Hillsong, Bethel, Steve Furtick, and some others teach a lot of false doctrine, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that they worship incorrectly since Jesus teaches that we will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Bad trees can only produce bad fruit. Yet MANY christians listen & sing bad songs from bad trees because they don't check out the church's doctrine!
Yes, they are conjuring spirits down, but not the Holy Spirit! Yes, they produce a feeling & bring forth fruit, but nothing holy! They mostly will sing "me" songs that do nothing but lift themselves up as a great people but rarely will lift up the Lord. They will sing about all the things that God does for them. This brings forth a feeling of euphoria that will make them feel justified & holy when all that feeling is is a feeling that goes away when it's over. This is why it goes on for a long time.
We have said nothing yet about the light shows, provocative dance, & sometimes sexy styles of singing by the women leaders.
When true praise & worship take place, God needs no such things to show forth His glory!
When it has to be pumped up with theactrical dances , light shows, special music, & spasmodic movements it's because it is fake.
God's people are led by the Holy Spirit, & when He moves among us, we need nothing else, for the Lord is our All in All. He does the rest, not us.
When the Holy Spirit is prayed to & worshipped more than the Lord whose name is above every name, that is one of the signs that falling away has begun in that church.
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If you are denying that The Holy Spirit is God you are a heretic.
You shouldn't be accusing anyone else of falling away.
Just as the people of The Lord God have always done
You shouldn't be accusing anyone else of falling away.
Just as the people of The Lord God have always done
Psalm 107
8 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
9 for he satisfies the thirsty
and fills the hungry with good things.
Deut 33:29
How happy you are, Israel!
Who is like you,
a people saved by the Lord?
He is the shield that protects you,
the sword you boast in.
Your enemies will cringe before you,
and you will tread on their backs.
Isaiah 61
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations,
and their posterity among the peoples.
All who see them will recognize
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.
10 I rejoice greatly in the Lord,
I exult in my God;
for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation
and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness,
as a groom wears a turban
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Psalm 144:15
15 Happy are the people with such blessings.
Happy are the people whose God is the Lord.
8 Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love
and his wonderful deeds for mankind,
9 for he satisfies the thirsty
and fills the hungry with good things.
Deut 33:29
How happy you are, Israel!
Who is like you,
a people saved by the Lord?
He is the shield that protects you,
the sword you boast in.
Your enemies will cringe before you,
and you will tread on their backs.
Isaiah 61
9 Their descendants will be known among the nations,
and their posterity among the peoples.
All who see them will recognize
that they are a people the Lord has blessed.
10 I rejoice greatly in the Lord,
I exult in my God;
for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation
and wrapped me in a robe of righteousness,
as a groom wears a turban
and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Psalm 144:15
15 Happy are the people with such blessings.
Happy are the people whose God is the Lord.
I am convinced that when they sing "Let your fire fall" they do not know what they're asking.
I was talking with a brother, who was also a close friend at the time, about the gifts of the Spirit. In short, I was confirming that they were for the saints today. He shook his head, looked down, and mumbled, "Oh man."
I asked, "What's up?"
He told me he used to go to a charismatic church where it was demanded of members to always be "on fire for the Lord". You had to demonstrate you were filled with the Holy Spirit at all times: raising your hands during "praise and worship", speaking in tongues, etc. Now, by themselves, I have no issues with raising one's hands during songs or speaking in tongues, but he described a culture in which it was required to show you "had the Holy Spirit" (his words). It frankly wore him out. He felt that he could never measure up to the standards of the church (one of the largest in our area, by the way).
I told him, "I wold have left such a gathering as well."
I have since helped people come out of such cultures. The damage done to them was severe: some were spanked by their parents for not raising their hands during the songs and sent to bed without supper, cursed by church leaders for questioning the pastor or his message, told they would die young if they didn't adhere to church doctrine, etc. One man told me of a time when the pastor asked his mother to divorce her husband because he would not tithe a parcel of land to the church. I could write pages.
My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.
Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.
I was talking with a brother, who was also a close friend at the time, about the gifts of the Spirit. In short, I was confirming that they were for the saints today. He shook his head, looked down, and mumbled, "Oh man."
I asked, "What's up?"
He told me he used to go to a charismatic church where it was demanded of members to always be "on fire for the Lord". You had to demonstrate you were filled with the Holy Spirit at all times: raising your hands during "praise and worship", speaking in tongues, etc. Now, by themselves, I have no issues with raising one's hands during songs or speaking in tongues, but he described a culture in which it was required to show you "had the Holy Spirit" (his words). It frankly wore him out. He felt that he could never measure up to the standards of the church (one of the largest in our area, by the way).
I told him, "I wold have left such a gathering as well."
I have since helped people come out of such cultures. The damage done to them was severe: some were spanked by their parents for not raising their hands during the songs and sent to bed without supper, cursed by church leaders for questioning the pastor or his message, told they would die young if they didn't adhere to church doctrine, etc. One man told me of a time when the pastor asked his mother to divorce her husband because he would not tithe a parcel of land to the church. I could write pages.
My point: while the gifts of the Spirit are authentic, a church culture centered around the gifts produces all kinds of vileness... even "child sacrifice" to appear more "holy" among peers. It's disgusting.
Mind you, I am not indicting all pentecostal or charismatic churches but we should be wary of ANY group that would want to be defined by the gifts.
I am so dissappointed that you jumped so quickly to say such a thing.
I never said the Holy Spirit wasn't God. He's the third person of the Trinity.
What I sad was:
There is NO SCRIPTURE that says we are to pray to the Holy Spirit. Jesus said we are to pray to the FATHER & ask all things in His name.
The modern church prays TO Jesus & the Holy Spirit. Neither are scriptural.
I never said the Holy Spirit wasn't God. He's the third person of the Trinity.
What I sad was:
There is NO SCRIPTURE that says we are to pray to the Holy Spirit. Jesus said we are to pray to the FATHER & ask all things in His name.
The modern church prays TO Jesus & the Holy Spirit. Neither are scriptural.
I believe you're probably right. As I asked in another post, "Is it too late?" I think it probably is for the many. Hopefully some will wake up.
It's interesting that in the parable of the ten virgins, all the virgins fell asleep. But when the cry came: "Here is the bridegroom!" the wise virgins at least had enough oil in their lamps and were ready for Him. The foolish ones, not so much.
It's interesting that in the parable of the ten virgins, all the virgins fell asleep. But when the cry came: "Here is the bridegroom!" the wise virgins at least had enough oil in their lamps and were ready for Him. The foolish ones, not so much.
Great thoughts posted here.
True believers know, that energizing the flesh is a dangerous thing. It is the Prince of this world who appeals to the flesh - God appeals to the spirit because He is Spirit. Believers are commanded to worship in: Spirit and Truth. The flesh is useless as an instrument of worship, other than to vocalize praise for God and be a vessel for the indwelling Spirit. Charismatic churches work on the idea of energizing the flesh. To make sure those in attendance "feel good". However, other so-called churches may use this idea as well. Way, way to many, use emotional appeals to get a commitment from the listener. Commitment should come out of a good conscience, not out of a temporary emotional high.
I used to transport various charismatic churches, in the Phoenix area, to religious camps located in the mountains. What I saw over the years, is enough to make a person ill. These churches, used the camps, as indoctrination seminars. The same way one would isolate people and "indoctrinate" them into any ideology. It is a well known form of brainwashing. Take those in attendance, 1) Remove them from outside support, 2) Feed them on your belief system, 3) Use your authority over them to enforce compliance, 4) Use peer pressure to reinforce compliance, 5) Use the threat of expulsion from their peers as punishment.
Additionally, these charismatic churches would teach these converts how to "speak in tongues". (Funny, I thought that was a gift of the Holy Spirit and as such, needed no teaching - it just happened.). This is not the way of the True Church. Shame on any church, if they apply pressure upon one to convert. It must be a true heart felt desire.
This practice, mentioned above, so sickened me, I had the company take me off of their transportation moves. Could not stand being around them.
As to calling down of the Spirit is concerned - I am confused??? Does not Scripture say, that believers are born of the Spirit? That the Holy Spirit is in believers. That Christ is with believers - always and believers are in Him? That believers are equipped with every spiritual blessing? That believers are sealed by the Spirit?
So one must ask -- What is it the believer is lacking, that one needs to call down the Spirit. Makes no Biblical sense. Sadly, I fear, they are calling down the spirit of the unholy one.
True believers know, that energizing the flesh is a dangerous thing. It is the Prince of this world who appeals to the flesh - God appeals to the spirit because He is Spirit. Believers are commanded to worship in: Spirit and Truth. The flesh is useless as an instrument of worship, other than to vocalize praise for God and be a vessel for the indwelling Spirit. Charismatic churches work on the idea of energizing the flesh. To make sure those in attendance "feel good". However, other so-called churches may use this idea as well. Way, way to many, use emotional appeals to get a commitment from the listener. Commitment should come out of a good conscience, not out of a temporary emotional high.
I used to transport various charismatic churches, in the Phoenix area, to religious camps located in the mountains. What I saw over the years, is enough to make a person ill. These churches, used the camps, as indoctrination seminars. The same way one would isolate people and "indoctrinate" them into any ideology. It is a well known form of brainwashing. Take those in attendance, 1) Remove them from outside support, 2) Feed them on your belief system, 3) Use your authority over them to enforce compliance, 4) Use peer pressure to reinforce compliance, 5) Use the threat of expulsion from their peers as punishment.
Additionally, these charismatic churches would teach these converts how to "speak in tongues". (Funny, I thought that was a gift of the Holy Spirit and as such, needed no teaching - it just happened.). This is not the way of the True Church. Shame on any church, if they apply pressure upon one to convert. It must be a true heart felt desire.
This practice, mentioned above, so sickened me, I had the company take me off of their transportation moves. Could not stand being around them.
As to calling down of the Spirit is concerned - I am confused??? Does not Scripture say, that believers are born of the Spirit? That the Holy Spirit is in believers. That Christ is with believers - always and believers are in Him? That believers are equipped with every spiritual blessing? That believers are sealed by the Spirit?
So one must ask -- What is it the believer is lacking, that one needs to call down the Spirit. Makes no Biblical sense. Sadly, I fear, they are calling down the spirit of the unholy one.
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