Has a lie crept in to our bible Does God allow demons to torment people

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Is it possible that the lies of satan have tricked people in our bible, about how God is in person

  • yes

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • no

    Votes: 10 66.7%
  • not sure

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • maybe

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    15

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,652
574
113
BTW "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost" should be capitalized. And here is where we see that all Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21)

To be "moved" by the Holy Ghost is to be totally controlled by the Holy Spirit. And "the prophecy" here means anything found in Scripture. The Old Testament is called "the Law and the Prophets", but since Moses himself was prophet, all of the OT was written by prophets. But Peter applies this same principle to himself and all the New Testament writers by says "We (apostles) have a more sure word of prophecy". Prophecy is strictly divine revelation, and since all Scripture was given by divine revelation, it is all "a more sure word of prophecy".
do you believe Jesus allows people to be tormented by demons too ?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
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And here is where we see that all Scripture was written by the Holy Spirit: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21) ...

And "the prophecy" here means anything found in Scripture.

While the statement can reasonably be extrapolated to mean everything in Scripture, Peter is actually talking about a subset of Scripture. He says, "No prophecy OF Scripture...." The prophecies recorded in Scripture did not come about by the will of humans who were interpreting events around them. Had he been referring to all of Scripture, he would have written, "No Scripture".

since Moses himself was prophet, all of the OT was written by prophets.

Once again, not true. Much of the historical content was written by unnamed persons, probably Levites or priests. Many of the Psalms and Proverbs were not penned by prophets.

But Peter applies this same principle to himself and all the New Testament writers by says "We (apostles) have a more sure word of prophecy". Prophecy is strictly divine revelation, and since all Scripture was given by divine revelation, it is all "a more sure word of prophecy".
You injected the word "apostles" where it doesn't belong. If the Holy Spirit had wanted it there, He would have put it there.

The "more sure word of prophecy" is again indicating a subset of Scripture, not "all Scripture". You are essentially claiming that Peter says, "But we have Scripture, which is more sure than Scripture". It is also possible that Peter is referring to the fulfillment of prophecy wrought by Jesus Christ.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
do you believe Jesus allows people to be tormented by demons
Yes.
Did he allow Satan to kill the wife and children of faithful Job just to win a wager as to the strength of Job's faithfulness? When Sovereign God is Omniscient, the answer in his word is, yes.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
Once again, not true. Much of the historical content was written by unnamed persons, probably Levites or priests. Many of the Psalms and Proverbs were not penned by prophets.
That is totally incorrect. For example since Christ and the apostles called David a prophet, that should suffice for the Psalms. ALL of the OT books are prophetic. So here is a breakdown of the Hebrew Tanakh which has only 24 books (corresponding to our 39 OT books)

I. TORAH (THE LAW -- 5 books) -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

II. NEVIIM (THE PROPHETS -- 8 books)
(a) FORMER PROPHETS -- Joshua, Judges, Samuel (1 &2), Kings (1 & 2)
(b) LATTER PROPHETS -- Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, The Twelve (Minor Prophets in one book)

III. KETUVIM (THE PSALMS OR THE WRITINGS -- 11 books) -- all regarded as prophetic by Christ, hence His broad description of "the Law and the Prophets".

Poetic: Psalms, Proverbs, Job
Megilloth (Scrolls): Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther
Historical: Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (1 book), Chronicles (1&2)
 
May 23, 2020
58
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If im understanding you correctly your saying that because Jesus rid people of demons, is because demons do obey God and listen to his commands ?. on the same note, you would have to say that the demon must get permission from God first befor they possess a person or torment them, ? and now we go into a very dark realm with this point of view, because it goes against the verry words of Jesus. The light of Jesus would be what casts out the demon, is my first responce to you not so much the command but the light from Jesus is what made the demons flee. simply put if Jesus hadnt of been there to rid the people of Demons they would have been possessed a whole lot longer than they where.

John 1.5 states that the darkness (demons) has never been able to comprehend the light. which means never been able to understand the light. and never means never. Never also means from the beginning the darkness has never been able to understand the light. never being able to understand the light means never obeying the light.

In the beginning God seperated the darkness (demons) from the earth with his light, meaning it is the the light that cast out demons and not so much the command,

The light shines into the darkness but yet the darkness flees from the light. which means the darkness can not understand it. where there is no light the darkness can rule.

The light that shines in a believer is what can cast out a demon in a possesed person, not so much the command that comes from the believer. To stop our selfs from being taking over from a demon there is so much we have to do and know. If we dont know and do, the darkness will dwell there. Ignorance is bliss to a demon, ignorance certainly inst bliss to God, Because he came down as Jessus and trained a whole bunch of people on how to defeat demons, with actions we need to apply everyday. and what we can do to put up with there torment.

“God opposes the proud (who is proud = satan)
but shows favor to the humble.”[a]

6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.


8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. (all christians being made to suffer by the enemy is not something Jesus likes but demons do it anyway).


10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11 To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen. (Jesus telling us what we must do to defeat disobeying demons who do not act on Gods authority but yet still attack his children)

I think I see where you are coming from, but Jesus never said it was his "light" that cast demons out. The scriptures say it directly. It was not an issue of light in which we or Jesus cast out demons, but authority. Matthew 10:1 says this, "Jesus called his twelve disciples together and gave them authority to cast out evil[a] spirits and to heal every kind of disease and illness." I see the dilemma we get into when we say that it was the authority of Jesus that controls what a demon is allowed to do with that, but according to scripture, i think we have to uphold it and continue to investigate it.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
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This reply was explicitly specific to the response it was attached to not your entire conversation with the bloke.
Say that again.
It makes no sense to me.

I dont know how you belabor a flyspeck like that.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
That is totally incorrect. For example since Christ and the apostles called David a prophet, that should suffice for the Psalms. ALL of the OT books are prophetic. So here is a breakdown of the Hebrew Tanakh which has only 24 books (corresponding to our 39 OT books)

I. TORAH (THE LAW -- 5 books) -- Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy

II. NEVIIM (THE PROPHETS -- 8 books)
(a) FORMER PROPHETS -- Joshua, Judges, Samuel (1 &2), Kings (1 & 2)
(b) LATTER PROPHETS -- Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, The Twelve (Minor Prophets in one book)

III. KETUVIM (THE PSALMS OR THE WRITINGS -- 11 books) -- all regarded as prophetic by Christ, hence His broad description of "the Law and the Prophets".

Poetic: Psalms, Proverbs, Job
Megilloth (Scrolls): Song of Songs, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther
Historical: Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah (1 book), Chronicles (1&2)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
That is totally incorrect. For example since Christ and the apostles called David a prophet, that should suffice for the Psalms.
As usual, you choose to be closed-minded and dogmatic instead of reasonable.

The fact that David penned most of the Psalms does not "suffice" to say that all the authors of the Psalms were prophets. Even one exception makes your assertion "totally incorrect".

ALL of the OT books are prophetic. So here is a breakdown of the Hebrew Tanakh which has only 24 books (corresponding to our 39 OT books)
I am well aware of the major divisions of the OT.

III. KETUVIM (THE PSALMS OR THE WRITINGS -- 11 books) -- all regarded as prophetic by Christ, hence His broad description of "the Law and the Prophets".
Christ meant exactly what He said. There is no need to add to His words.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
113
do you believe Jesus allows people to be tormented by demons too ?
If people are tormented by demons, and Jesus does not always stop it before it happens, doesn't that mean he 'allows' it? What kind of question is that?
 
Jun 9, 2021
1,871
425
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your still carrying on to power phrase. Do you believe Jesus allows an evil spirit to torment someone. This is a power phrase for your power phrase Jesus wants (ALL) to be saved.
No, I am carrying on that the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation is Holy Spirit guided and Inspired.
 

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,652
574
113
No, NO lie has "crept into" The PURE WORD Of TRUTH (KJB!).

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!
There are many lies that Jesus warns us about in the bible. like this one for instance. Old testerment

Leviticus 24:19-21
19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.


New testerment Matthew 5:38-42
The Message

Love Your Enemies
38-42 “Here’s another old saying that deserves a second look: ‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.’ Is that going to get us anywhere? Here’s what I propose: ‘Don’t hit back at all.’ If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.

Jesus was in confrontation many times with the sribes of the old testerment because of how they where miss repersenting the spirit with what they where writing in there laws. Jesus at one points told the Jews, your father is of the devil,. Jesus told the jews they where being decieved by the father of all lies. this is obviously one of the reasons why. there is more reasons why.

I can understand also that these words could have been explained by God through the scribes in the old testerment, but according to Jesus they where not what the Holy spirit wanted.
 

de-emerald

Well-known member
May 8, 2021
1,652
574
113
@Pilgrimshope @JaumeJ @1ofthem @Absolutely @AandW @Mem @Dino246 @Magenta @Lucy-Pevensie @glen55 @Gideon300 @Runningman @Ahwatukee @tourist. @Blade @Rolly @Nehemiah6 @presidente @posthuman @Kidron @azsheepdog @DrGuyPhD @Icedaisey @GRACE_ambassador
There are many lies that Jesus warns us about in the bible. like this one for instance.

Old testerment lie not of the spirit

Leviticus 24:19-21
19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.


New testerment truth of the spirit Matthew 5:38-42
The Message
Love Your Enemies

38-42 “Here’s another old saying that deserves a second look: ‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.’ Is that going to get us anywhere? Here’s what I propose: ‘Don’t hit back at all.’ If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.

Jesus was in confrontation many times with the sribes of the old testerment because of how they where miss repersenting the spirit with what they where writing in there laws. Jesus at one points told the Jews, your father is of the devil,. Jesus told the jews they where being decieved by the father of all lies. this is obviously one of the reasons why. there is more reasons why.

I can understand also that these words could have been explained by God through the scribes in the old testerment, but according to Jesus they where not what the Holy spirit wanted.
 
Aug 2, 2021
7,317
2,048
113
While the statement can reasonably be extrapolated to mean everything in Scripture, Peter is actually talking about a subset of Scripture. He says, "No prophecy OF Scripture...." The prophecies recorded in Scripture did not come about by the will of humans who were interpreting events around them. Had he been referring to all of Scripture, he would have written, "No Scripture".


Once again, not true. Much of the historical content was written by unnamed persons, probably Levites or priests. Many of the Psalms and Proverbs were not penned by prophets.


You injected the word "apostles" where it doesn't belong. If the Holy Spirit had wanted it there, He would have put it there.

The "more sure word of prophecy" is again indicating a subset of Scripture, not "all Scripture". You are essentially claiming that Peter says, "But we have Scripture, which is more sure than Scripture". It is also possible that Peter is referring to the fulfillment of prophecy wrought by Jesus Christ.
Catch up to today, in which the Holy Spirit which says:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
There are many lies that Jesus warns us about in the bible. like this one for instance.

Old testerment lie not of the spirit

Leviticus 24:19-21
19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. 21 Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death.


New testerment truth of the spirit Matthew 5:38-42
The Message
Love Your Enemies

38-42 “Here’s another old saying that deserves a second look: ‘Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.’ Is that going to get us anywhere? Here’s what I propose: ‘Don’t hit back at all.’ If someone strikes you, stand there and take it. If someone drags you into court and sues for the shirt off your back, giftwrap your best coat and make a present of it. And if someone takes unfair advantage of you, use the occasion to practice the servant life. No more tit-for-tat stuff. Live generously.

Jesus was in confrontation many times with the sribes of the old testerment because of how they where miss repersenting the spirit with what they where writing in there laws. Jesus at one points told the Jews, your father is of the devil,. Jesus told the jews they where being decieved by the father of all lies. this is obviously one of the reasons why. there is more reasons why.

I can understand also that these words could have been explained by God through the scribes in the old testerment, but according to Jesus they where not what the Holy spirit wanted.
Instead of making heretical assertions, perhaps you should try to understand the nature and purpose of the Old Testament law.

By the way, the word is "testAment" not "testerment". You could look up these words for yourself, if you cared to do so.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
Catch up to today, in which the Holy Spirit which says:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Next time, try harder to understand what I write before attempting to correct me.