Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.

Bingo. Christ returns after the great tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. This is one of the most definitive proofs for a post-trib return/resurrection/rapture.

Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?

I think you do not take into account the significance of the shutting of the door. If the door is shut and you are on the outside, it's the end for you. Not you personally, but the examples are God shut Noah and his family in the ark and there was no way for anyone outside to enter.

Nor will there be any way for anyone to enter once the door is shut on them.

Bingo! You just put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered!

You don't put much stock in what Jesus did for believers by taking upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, do you?

Understand then that, by believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after the great tribulation, i.e. after His wrath, you are putting the church through God's wrath. There is no way around this. Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?

And there is this interesting Proverb:

Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

Bingo! You just put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus already suffered!

You don't put much stock in what Jesus did for believers by taking upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, do you?

Understand then that, by believing and teaching that the Lord is going to gather His church after the great tribulation, i.e. after His wrath, you are putting the church through God's wrath. There is no way around this. Why do you continue to bring in partial scriptural information to make your conclusion?

Statements like this is why I reject almost everything this person says.
For someone who studies as much as he claims, his understand is lacking.

And there is this interesting Proverb:

Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.

The way around it is that you don't seem to understand what Jesus actually did.

Jesus taught that in the world there will be tribulation. The crucifixion that Jesus endured satisfied God's wrath in a spiritual sense. Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved from the wrath to come - that is the wrath of hellfire and damnation, not the tribulation in the world.

This is evidenced by the fact that even born again Christians are currently facing hardships, persecution, and tribulation in the present and for the past almost 2,000 years.

You're wrongly conflating the great tribulation with the wrath of God. The persecution Christians have endured have been due to people in the world, just like Jesus taught. The great tribulation will be caused by protagonists such as Satan, beast, and false prophet. Not God.

A closer understanding of the Hebrew is

Proverbs 21:17

Easy-to-Read Version



17 Loving pleasure leads to poverty. Wine and luxury will never make you wealthy.

ok, does not really relate to what i said,

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cf...gg/ID/8517/Oil-as-Symbol-Gods-Holy-Spirit.htm

1 Samuel 16:13
Easy-to-Read Version
13 Samuel took the horn with the oil in it, and poured the special oil on Jesse’s youngest son in front of his brothers. The Spirit of the Lord came on David with great power from that day on. Then Samuel went back home to Ramah.

Exodus 30:31
And say to the Israelites, This is a holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit], sacred to Me alone throughout your generations.

Exodus 37:29
He also made the holy anointing oil [symbol of the Holy Spirit] and the pure, fragrant incense, after the perfumer’s art.

2 Corinthians 1:21
Common English Bible
21 God is the one who establishes us with you in Christ and who anointed us.

James 5:14
Common English Bible
14 If any of you are sick, they should call for the elders of the church, and the elders should pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord.

In the religious context anointing was done with oil and became a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

You may find this book of interest:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Emblems_of_the_Holy_Spirit/BrQCAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

That still only speaks of one return.

And in ad 70 the believers fled.

That does not mean it has anything to do with the gt.

The word " hammer" was not used in the crucifiction. Therefore i contend one never existed. They drilled holes in his feet and hands and hung them on predriven nails.


You framed all that outside the rapture verses

At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.

Easy-to-read is subjective. I don't think I'm stumbling with translation here. And I pointed out why I like that Proverb in another reply. Wine and oil are sometimes referring to the Holy Spirit.

From context the GT is the generation living then. Not a redefining of the phrase today. The natural reading of fleeing to the mountains tells me that.