Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[AandW]

What it all boils down to is there ARE NO Scripture to back a Rapture Event before the Second Coming. Look at the years, months, days, hours, minutes, seconds literally wasted looking for Scriptures to explain TWO RAPTURES. Those precious moments could have been spent on doing what we are called to do, lead people to Christ.

Forgive my language here, but when it comes to trying to put Scripture speaking only about a one time single Rapture Event into the timing of Matthew 24, Revelation, Daniel, and others to create a [secret Rapture Event] between Christ's Ascension and His Second Coming, the stupid is real!

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

God called the galations foolish.

The martyrs of the gt or foolish virgins are believers left behind due to foolishly not being ready.

It says all take the mark or die.

" every man, woman and child whether bond or free"

You must take it or die.

....according to the bible.

To this day nobody has read those verses
They all buck up at it everytime i post it.

Yet it is Gods word.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand yet. But, thank you. I'm a little confused about "the mark." I know there are names written before time in a book and there are people who's been allotted to the devil and are so marked.

And about the foolish, I was thinking of all the references to fools in the book of Proverbs, too many to really cite here. But, thinking about it, we all are or were fools at one time in our lives. And I am still very foolish about things. But, I've noticed a little improvement in my judgment as I go along in life.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Greetings,

All of those signs that you posted above take place during the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which lead up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon us and we must therefore be gathered from the earth prior to those plagues of wrath.

You are confusing the event of the gathering of the church with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. However, they they are two separate events which take place at different times and have different purposes.

The "gathering of the church" are what I read the prophets all saying, "flee the cities," "come out of her," "let us go to the mountain," and so on. This has been going on for centuries though. I never thought of it as a specific "event" appointed for a specific time.

At least that is my understanding. I don't see that as a rapture, but I do see it as another exodus. Another sanctification, which means separation. Then he says that these desolate places will be dwelled in by "doleful creatures." He goes on and lists "unclean" creatures.

But, still, we have to dwell among the tares because we are not gathered up from them until the harvest. This exodus happens before Jesus returns though. We won't stand there and see him descending in glory from the sky until it's "wrath time." That's so far the extent of my understanding.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

What it all boils down to is there ARE NO Scripture to back a Rapture Event before the Second Coming. Look at the years, months, days, hours, minutes, seconds literally wasted looking for Scriptures to explain TWO RAPTURES. Those precious moments could have been spent on doing what we are called to do, lead people to Christ.

Forgive my language here, but when it comes to trying to put Scripture speaking only about a one time single Rapture Event into the timing of Matthew 24, Revelation, Daniel, and others to create a [secret Rapture Event] between Christ's Ascension and His Second Coming, the stupid is real!

Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.

 

[DWR]

Rev. 20 speaks of the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Those in the FIRST RESURRECTION are blessed because the second death has no power over them.
The second death is being cast into the lake of fire.
ALL whose name is not in the book of life will suffer the second death.
Those INCLUDED in the first resurrection are mentioned in verse 4.
How can both the "CHURCH" and those mentioned in verse 4 be in the FIRST RESURRETION and escape the second death if those two events take place 7 years apart?

 

[Ahwatukee]

The "gathering of the church" are what I read the prophets all saying, "flee the cities," "come out of her," "let us go to the mountain," and so on. This has been going on for centuries though. I never thought of it as a specific "event" appointed for a specific time.

At least that is my understanding. I don't see that as a rapture, but I do see it as another exodus. Another sanctification, which means separation. Then he says that these desolate places will be dwelled in by "doleful creatures." He goes on and lists "unclean" creatures.

But, still, we have to dwell among the tares because we are not gathered up from them until the harvest. This exodus happens before Jesus returns though. We won't stand there and see him descending in glory from the sky until it's "wrath time." That's so far the extent of my understanding.

What is sounds like you are referring to is a mixture of Matt.24:15 when the abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem which is set up in the temple, the fleeing of the woman/Israel in Rev.12 and Rev.18 where God is calling His people out of the religious system of Mystery, Babylon the Great. None of these have anything to do with the gathering of the church. For all of those events take place during the time of God's wrath.

 

[Runningman]

Rev. 20 speaks of the FIRST RESURRECTION.
Those in the FIRST RESURRECTION are blessed because the second death has no power over them.
The second death is being cast into the lake of fire.
ALL whose name is not in the book of life will suffer the second death.
Those INCLUDED in the first resurrection are mentioned in verse 4.
How can both the "CHURCH" and those mentioned in verse 4 be in the FIRST RESURRETION and escape the second death if those two events take place 7 years apart?

Bingo. Christ returns after the great tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. This is one of the most definitive proofs for a post-trib return/resurrection/rapture.

 

[DWR]

Bingo. Christ returns after the great tribulation to perform the first resurrection and rapture. This is one of the most definitive proofs for a post-trib return/resurrection/rapture.

Just wait and here some of the ridiculous ways this is explained away.

 

[TheLearner]

There is no gathering
No rescue of any kind after the flood, or , in lots case after the judgement.

Jesus used both dynamics.
In conjunction with watch and be ready.

Ready to stay????
Ready to stay in the house in sodom?

Noah was gathered BEFORE the flood= rapure
Noah was in the ark pre trib= rapture
Noah was carried over a mile into the sky = rapture

Noahs inlaws stayed behind = rapture foolish do as well.

Noah returned AFTER the flood to set up a kingdom = pretrib rapture....taken up into the sky....return AFTER the judgement

Without a doubt Noah gathered, taken into sky, family left behind, complete with "ark" being the type for heaven.

Vivid vivid vivid picture of the pretrib rapture.

The word Rapture is not used in Matthew 24, nor is it used in Noah's Flood.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

1. to take to (cf. παρά, IV. 1), to take with oneself, to join to oneself: τινα, an associate, a companion, Matthew 17:1; Matthew 26:37; Mark 4:36; Mark 5:40; Mark 9:2; Mark 10:32; Luke 9:10, 28; Luke 11:26; Luke 18:31; Acts 15:39; in the passive, Matthew 24:40, 41; Luke 17:34-36; one to be led off as a prisoner, John 19:16; Acts 23:18; https://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm

This supports a man being forced into military service in 70 AD.


"The abomination of desolation (το βδελυγμα της ερεμωσεως). An allusion to Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes erected an altar to Zeus on the altar of Jehovah (1Macc. 1:54,59; 6:7; 2Macc. 6:1-5). The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luke 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event. The verb βδελυσσομα is to feel nausea because of stench, to abhor, to detest. Idolatry was a stench to God (Luke 16:15; Revelation 17:4). Josephus tells us that the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns placed by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor. ...

Flee unto the mountains (φευγετωσαν εις τα ορη). The mountains east of the Jordan. Eusebius (H.E. iii,5,3) says that the Christians actually fled to Pella at the foot of the mountains about seventeen miles south of the Sea of Galilee. They remembered the warning of Jesus and fled for safety.

Why would a Christian flee to the mountains, if they are being raptured?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/matthew-24.html
https://www.studylight.org/study-desk.html?q1=lu+17:26-30&t1=eng_nas&sr=1

 

[TheLearner]

God called the galations foolish.

The martyrs of the gt or foolish virgins are believers left behind due to foolishly not being ready.

It says all take the mark or die.

" every man, woman and child whether bond or free"

You must take it or die.

....according to the bible.

To this day nobody has read those verses
They all buck up at it everytime i post it.

Yet it is Gods word.

oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Absolutely]

What it all boils down to is there ARE NO Scripture to back a Rapture Event before the Second Coming. Look at the years, months, days, hours, minutes, seconds literally wasted looking for Scriptures to explain TWO RAPTURES. Those precious moments could have been spent on doing what we are called to do, lead people to Christ.

Forgive my language here, but when it comes to trying to put Scripture speaking only about a one time single Rapture Event into the timing of Matthew 24, Revelation, Daniel, and others to create a [secret Rapture Event] between Christ's Ascension and His Second Coming, the stupid is real!

rev 14 alone refutes your claim.

 

[Absolutely]

The word Rapture is not used in Matthew 24, nor is it used in Noah's Flood.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

1. to take to (cf. παρά, IV. 1), to take with oneself, to join to oneself: τινα, an associate, a companion, Matthew 17:1; Matthew 26:37; Mark 4:36; Mark 5:40; Mark 9:2; Mark 10:32; Luke 9:10, 28; Luke 11:26; Luke 18:31; Acts 15:39; in the passive, Matthew 24:40, 41; Luke 17:34-36; one to be led off as a prisoner, John 19:16; Acts 23:18; https://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm

This supports a man being forced into military service in 70 AD.


"The abomination of desolation (το βδελυγμα της ερεμωσεως). An allusion to Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes erected an altar to Zeus on the altar of Jehovah (1Macc. 1:54,59; 6:7; 2Macc. 6:1-5). The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luke 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event. The verb βδελυσσομα is to feel nausea because of stench, to abhor, to detest. Idolatry was a stench to God (Luke 16:15; Revelation 17:4). Josephus tells us that the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns placed by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor. ...

Flee unto the mountains (φευγετωσαν εις τα ορη). The mountains east of the Jordan. Eusebius (H.E. iii,5,3) says that the Christians actually fled to Pella at the foot of the mountains about seventeen miles south of the Sea of Galilee. They remembered the warning of Jesus and fled for safety.

Why would a Christian flee to the mountains, if they are being raptured?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/matthew-24.html
https://www.studylight.org/study-desk.html?q1=lu+17:26-30&t1=eng_nas&sr=1

The word " hammer" was not used in the crucifiction. Therefore i contend one never existed. They drilled holes in his feet and hands and hung them on predriven nails.


You framed all that outside the rapture verses

 

[TheLearner]

Daniel 9:9
To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;

 

[Absolutely]

The word Rapture is not used in Matthew 24, nor is it used in Noah's Flood.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

1. to take to (cf. παρά, IV. 1), to take with oneself, to join to oneself: τινα, an associate, a companion, Matthew 17:1; Matthew 26:37; Mark 4:36; Mark 5:40; Mark 9:2; Mark 10:32; Luke 9:10, 28; Luke 11:26; Luke 18:31; Acts 15:39; in the passive, Matthew 24:40, 41; Luke 17:34-36; one to be led off as a prisoner, John 19:16; Acts 23:18; https://biblehub.com/greek/3880.htm

This supports a man being forced into military service in 70 AD.


"The abomination of desolation (το βδελυγμα της ερεμωσεως). An allusion to Daniel 9:27; Daniel 11:31; Daniel 12:11. Antiochus Epiphanes erected an altar to Zeus on the altar of Jehovah (1Macc. 1:54,59; 6:7; 2Macc. 6:1-5). The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luke 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event. The verb βδελυσσομα is to feel nausea because of stench, to abhor, to detest. Idolatry was a stench to God (Luke 16:15; Revelation 17:4). Josephus tells us that the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns placed by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor. ...

Flee unto the mountains (φευγετωσαν εις τα ορη). The mountains east of the Jordan. Eusebius (H.E. iii,5,3) says that the Christians actually fled to Pella at the foot of the mountains about seventeen miles south of the Sea of Galilee. They remembered the warning of Jesus and fled for safety.

Why would a Christian flee to the mountains, if they are being raptured?

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/matthew-24.html
https://www.studylight.org/study-desk.html?q1=lu+17:26-30&t1=eng_nas&sr=1

And in ad 70 the believers fled.

That does not mean it has anything to do with the gt.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

What is sounds like you are referring to is a mixture of Matt.24:15 when the abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem which is set up in the temple, the fleeing of the woman/Israel in Rev.12 and Rev.18 where God is calling His people out of the religious system of Mystery, Babylon the Great. None of these have anything to do with the gathering of the church. For all of those events take place during the time of God's wrath.

I'm actually referring to the prophets in the OT.

Isaiah 2:2-5
Jeremiah 6:1
Micah 4:2

There is an exodus happening and a sanctification of the flock who are leaving and "going up" to the mountain of the Lord to be taught of him per his covenant.

Speaking on the desolation of places:

Job 15:28
Job 15:34
Isaiah 1:7
Isaiah 13:22
Jeremiah 4:7
Jeremiah 7:34
Jeremiah 9:11
Jeremiah 9:8
Jeremiah 44:6

There are lots and lots more and I didn't even cite from Ezekiel, but I'm just highlighting a few of them. All these sayings of the prophets are profound and it has been going on for a very long time. That's my impression. It's something I experienced myself when I left the church I went to because of the offensive graven images and idols in there and because I didn't feel "fed" from the worship services.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit.

And there is this interesting Proverb:

Proverbs 21:17 He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

 

[Mem]

It is worldwide.

Of course the Jews are ushered to safety.

And surly some amazon tribe carries on as usual.

But how do you reconcile " every man, woman, and child"

Further, only the 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions.

So actually , the mark is worldwide, but the sword from Jesus is limited to the ac's army.

At the risk of being view as JW, I think the 144k, I'll call the perfect square whole number thingy because I'm not expert on numerical terminology, are representative of the "raptured," and so their 'sealing' before judgment commences. So I think these are us, all of us, no waiting for any more Jews to come in or anything. IOW, the last trump speaks to the (announcement the beginning of the new (year) arriving (and the books determining individuals' fate for the coming year are opened in order to be written in or erased from). And that 'there is silence in heaven for the space of half an hour,' cause me wonder if this is likened to the 10 day grace period until the great trump is sounded which announces the final seal of the book, if you're written in, you're in, if not, woah. Thereafter, the only one's inflicted or dying are those found not written in the book of like or rather that received the mark of the beast.

And I reconcile, "And he causes all (categories of people), man, woman, and child, bond, free, rich, poor, no exceptions... unless God forbid it of course... but this happens before the impervious sealing of the whole (perfect) body of which those killed in former manner are raised whole and impervious along with those that remain being changed into the same state.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The word " hammer" was not used in the crucifiction. Therefore i contend one never existed. They drilled holes in his feet and hands and hung them on predriven nails.

Ah, the ye olde word game.

You framed all that outside the rapture verses

OK, just point me to the verse that has raptured believers going to heaven. Let's absolutely focus on only the rapture verses.

So, where is the mention of going to heaven post rapture?

You really opened yourself up there.

 

[AandW]

rev 14 alone refutes your claim.

That still only speaks of one return.

 

[AandW]

Do you consider some (many) of the saints rising up from the graves at the time of Jesus' death on the cross a rapture? (Matt 27:52) It was a resurrection; wasn't it? Although it did not include King David. That I don't know why.

I want to look more into this idealism of yours. See what I find before answering you. Excellent point made.