Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

So you living according the OT law?
I have written often enough what is the pentecostal teaching about the Holy Spirit.

the AOG teaches still the initial evidence or prophecying

you don't know what the Pentecostals teach and that is laughable. You search out od a bias and judge all on those who are on tv and youtube. They do not represent the churches in the trenches. IF you really want to know go to a small one and see what they do feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, praying for the sick YOu have an issue with that? You are just hateful.

The church historical records show conclusively that the Methodist Holiness people described themselves as Pentecostal and believed that entire sanctification by faith involved the baptism with the Spirit.

This answer was not for you.

CS1, this answer was not for you. You believe that all scripture is to follow for us today?

Well, so often you call me hatefull in your posts, that I must believe you are right.

I believe that the Lord is not giving all believers the same duty. So not every follower of Christ must become an Pastor ore Evangelist.
But every believer should give witness to the hope he has in Christ.

Its according my understanding also the question of the call and the leading of the Holy Spirit in what and where I serve the Lord.

Btw, i dont watch pentecostal ore charismatic preachers in TV ore on youtube.

What I know from pentecostals i have from their churchwebsites.
Ore from history reports, f.e. when the pentecostal movment came to germany in 1907
And from my own expieriences with them.

Why I dont tell you what I do? I fear you will make it laughable.

Ok. You can drop the link and I'll take a look.

Perhaps you can also review this reference to support my earlier reply.
https://www.thegospelofchrist.com/knowledge-base/tgoc--t2cat

Was it co incidental? the rejection by the German evangelicals of the Welsh revival that swept Europe and the Pentecostal which followed in it's train and the 1st world war?

Most of those who were involved in the Welsh revival became the leaders of the early Pentecostal movement.

I am not now a Pentecostal or charismatic. However, I was the first 15 years I was saved. To me it is a shallow doctrine, and mostly experiential. I prefer to rely on the Bible for my doctrine, and let the Holy Spirit, who is NOT an extrovert, lead and guide me!

In fact, a cult, the Oneness Pentecostals are the ones who perpetuate this non-biblical idea that you aren't saved if you don't speak in tongues as well as a bunch of other heresies, like not believing in the Trinity. I have no problem fellowshipping with Pentecostals, even if they tend to sometimes look down on people who haven't had this so-called second blessing.

I'm not worried about denominational issues that are not central to salvation. But, as I said, Oneness Pentecostals have added to the gospel. That does affect salvation.

And I did once believe I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But it became apparent I was lying to myself and God. Just because something was written in the Bible, doesn't mean it applies to us, today.

As for why Pentecostalism has lasted for 115 years, I believe that emotionalism sucks people in, plus charismatic leaders suck people into their sect. But no, most Pentecostals are not bad people or even deluded. And God is dealing with us all, and he knows where each believer stands, and where they need to change to be transformed.

How can you say that the gift of tongues is meant for “an audience of unbelievers”, when in the very next verse (1 Corinthians 14:23) it says that if an unbeliever walks in on everyone speaking in tongues they will think you are mad? It actually is endorsing prophesying in the case of unbelievers because they will be convinced (it says) and it says also “falling down on his face he will worship God and report God is in you of a truth.” So prophecy in this case is beneficial for the unbeliever as opposed to tongues.

Good post, I dont think that most of pentecostals ore charismatics are bad people.
My believing was long time, that it makes no matter in the Mission ministrie which denomination someone belongs. The Main point is that people will be saved. So I had no problem to work together with indian pentecostals. But what I experienced was that charismatics destroy the ministry. Coming in churches and Split them, working behind the back and try to convince the believers from their teachings.
Thats why I avoid to work together with charismatics.
Today, i speak from germany, you find charismatics in nearly every denomination. And their influence is growing in a bad way.
Since I became Christian, I saw never that one denomination is better then the other. In heaven there will be none denomination.

What I recognice is that non teaching is splitting christianity more ( and I dont mean the name christianity) then the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
On the other side is to see that charismatics and pentecostals ( not all) are the engine for the worldwide ekomene. On the cost of the truth of the word of God.

Actually, I will beg to differ that Verse 23 supports Verse 22.


Let's back up a bit to verse 21
In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”

"This people" refers to the Jews or God's people (believers). Paul is using Verse 21 (or the reference from Isaiah 28:11-12) to logically point that because his people do not listen, then the use of tongues is meant for unbelievers.


Again there is no ambiguity in verse 22:
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.


Verse 23 gives us an example and shows us why:

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Let's say I'm a member of this congregation in Verse 23. And there is a stirring by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit is one Spirit and moves in oneness with God and Christ. I start speaking in tongues, everyone in my pew starts speaking in tongues, and the preacher at the pulpit starts speaking in tongues, we would be speaking in one accord but in different languages and utterances? To the unbeliever or the outsider, if he chances upon this scene happening within the church, wouldn't he conclude that we are a raving, mad bunch? Furthermore, there is no edification among believers to speak in tongues because we do not understand ourselves or each other (without another gift of interpretation of tongues). Therefore the conclusion is that the use of tongues, cannot be for believers within the congregation. This example shows that speaking tongues among believers does not make sense. Hence, tongues is meant for unbelievers.


Verse 24-25, on the other hand shows us an opposite setting.

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Let's say I'm a member of this congregation in Verse 24-25. And there is a stirring by the Holy Spirit to prophesy. The Holy Spirit is one Spirit and moves in oneness with God and Christ. I start speaking prophesying, everyone in my pew starts prophesying, and the preacher at the pulpit starts prophesying, we would be prophesying in one accord and in the same language. To the unbeliever or the outsider, if he chances upon this scene happening within the church and he understands the language that is being used for prophesy, he will leave at the very least concluding that God is among us and in the best-case scenario, a repentant and new believer in Christ. This example shows that prophesying among believers makes sense. Hence, prophesy is meant for believers.


I hope my not-so-short reply will convince some in this post that I have at least given this passage serious thought before coming to this conclusion.

the great commission was given to all the body of Christ, not just the fivefold. Church websites? Please be honest. You were alive in 1907? If you do the work of the Lord and God has called you to do I WILL NOT LAUGH AT that I will say amen. Yet you mock and scoff at the work God has called others to do and suggest your 1907 experience is a normalized thing with all? I guess I should feel the same way with your country and people from 1942 to 1945 huh?

Could not agree more with you. I first came across Pentecostals through Teen Challenge Hawaii then Sydney Australia. I also went to a small meeting in Hong Kong where I thought a woman was praying in Chinese - my first encounter with tongues. I met a man a couple of years older than me who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. He encouraged me, but it was a book by Pat Boone that finally convinced me.

Some years later I went through a really dark period, gave up ministry (youth leader) and left the church I was in. I met an Electrical Contractor who knew Jesus in a way that I did not know possible. I was associated with him for over 25 years until he passed away. I owe him the greatest debt. I had a great struggle over my identity in Christ. I always was looking for a "breakthrough". One night he ministered to me in the most simple words, yet that cut through my confusion and I saw the light. The breakthrough was that I didn't need a breakthrough! Much Christian teaching focuses on behaviour. Not enough focuses on who we are in Christ. If we get the latter right, the former becomes so much easier.

I don't pray in tongues. Those who do are obviously blessed by it. The most spiritual man I knew was baptised in the Holy Spirit but never spoke in tongues. I dislike pigeonholing people.

I am well aware that there is a lot of counterfeit to beware of. A friend of mine received a false tongue. She was not even saved when someone prayed for her and told her just to not speak English but whatever came out of her mouth. So she did. It was meaningless babble. She got born again and filled with the Spirit. She speaks in tongues now, but not publicly. We do not encourage that in our meetings.

with every gift from God, man and women have misused. That in no way means the gift is not for today. There are those who are using the gifts properly and with integrity. No gift to the church has been more abused than that of the office of Pastor. YET That gift is still needed today as Eph 4:11 tells us.

Why you dont read what I wrote?

why don't you respond to what I have written?

Time Problem, and I am not shure I should do it to someone who calls me a hatefull person. Only because I dont believe in man made doctrine.

Ok, no problem yet if you are speaking of all as you have and not fully knowing all who are Pentecostals as you have said about those who are, being ungodly and unbiblical makes you hateful. it is what you said that is hateful not what you don't believe.

many people here have said " I don't believe the Gift of Tongues is for today" Ok so be it no problem. I have not said they are unbiblical I disagree yet they are just as saved as I from what I see in the confession of Christ. I have heard those say the "tongues I see today is not the one in the Bible "

I agree to appoint with that because many have abused the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are two examples where I agree with those who do not see The gift of tongues for today. I did not say they were of the devil as you have, I have not saved them practicing pagan beliefs as you have. I have yet to even mention their denomination if they even have one. You have not provided anything edifying or testimony of how God is using you today.

Do you pray today for sick people are they healed? You said you leave it in the hands of God. But attack those who believe God heals today.

I think I see why you went down that winding path to a greater understanding in Christ. You exercise critical thinking, and God was leading you to use your mind. So many of us Christians have failed to do that. I got into lots of problems until I was led to do that.

You share some definite wisdom there. Thanks for the interesting story of your life. I'm sure there's tons more you could tell?