Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[Kavik]

Pentecostalism was around before Asuza. it was around in Eastern Europe as well as America and Africa in the 18th century.

Sources?? There were movements in the 1800's that led to the eventual development of Pentecostalism, but 1700's in Eastern Europe and Africa??

 

[ResidentAlien]

If it is built on sinking sand, why is it still going a hundred years later?

I've already said why I believe it's still around—God has allowed it to stay around:

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."—2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' "—Matthew 7:21-23

Notice what these people said in the above quote: "In Your name!" They aren't people who did things for their own glory; they're people who had the misguided belief they were doing something for His glory.

"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"—Luke 18:8

 

[soberxp]

I've already said why I believe it's still around—God has allowed it to stay around:

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."—2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' "—Matthew 7:21-23

Notice what these people said in the above quote: "In Your name!" They aren't people who did things for their own glory; they're people who had the misguided belief they were doing something for His glory.

"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"—Luke 18:8

The reality is not optimistic.
Many lack a correct understanding of word of God.
They usually put their feelings above understanding the words of God.

 

[Aidan1]

Check out Maria Woodworth Etter, she was not called a Pentecostal but she was pentecostal. John Dowie was also around at the turn of the century, whatever he became in later years he did some good work in Africa and founded Zion city.

Only one or a few denominations teach tongues as a requirement. Pentecostalism is not a denomination.

Pentecostals were around in the 16th and 17th century in Europe, John Bunyan alludes to them.

He probably was referring to George Fox and the Quakers, George Fox was a remarkable person.

Then what is in your eyes an pentecostal?
The name pentecostal came up with the events in Topeka and Azuza. And the teaching that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Which you cant find before. You can find speaking in tongues before in Christian groups and in sects, but not this particular teaching.
So the persons you mentioned where no pentecostals.
Today all pentecostals and charismatics have common, that they teach that without speaking in tongues no baptism with the Holy Spirit for empowerment, ore as some believe ( oneness pentecostals ) no salvation.

 

[Aidan1]

the proof is found in Acts chapter 1:8 and 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

You need proof a sign, just as Jesus said a perverted adulterous generation needs a sign. Unlike Pentacostels we don't seek signs as you think, that is your biblical error. We believe what Jesus said that Sign Follow those who believe and God confirms his word with them.

Mark 16:17,20
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


YOu don't think the Lord follows us today? YOu don't see God doing great things in your church?
Or on the street? You see no one getting saved coming to the Lord after your Pastor preaches A MESSAGE? Or is it just a talk to only those who are "members"?

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works? The Pentecostals I know ARE Living Proof!


That the Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission. Yet you ask like a spoiled brat " where's the proof".


Where is your proof of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.

I'm sure those who are under the influence will be greatly impressed with your bible reading. But to pray for them to be healed, don't pray for them to be set free because it won't happen just read the bible you don't believe works today ok guy.

Can it be that you not read what I wrote?
I said to live a moral life is no proof. As well doing signs and miracles are no proof. In the endtime people try to deceive believers with signs and miracles.

 

[CS1]

Can it be that you not read what I wrote?
I said to live a moral life is no proof. As well doing signs and miracles are no proof. In the endtime people try to deceive believers with signs and miracles.

I am not trying to deceive anyone.


Mark 16:17,20
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Guess you think Jesus did not mean this huh?

 

[Aidan1]

I am not trying to deceive anyone.


Mark 16:17,20
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;"

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Guess you think Jesus did not mean this huh?

For a certain time, yes. But for today no.
If so everybody, even nonbelievers would recognize it.

 

[CS1]

For a certain time, yes. But for today no.
If so everybody, even nonbelievers would recognize it.

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works? The Pentecostals I know ARE Living Proof!


That the Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission. Yet you ask like a spoiled brat " where's the proof".


Where is your proof of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.

I'm sure those who are under the influence will be greatly impressed with your bible reading. But to pray for them to be healed, don't pray for them to be set free because it won't happen just read the bible you don't believe works today ok guy.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Yes, I agree that based on this account, both Parham and Ozman sound like dodgy characters trying to convince the congregation for evidence of an outpouring of the holy spirit through tongues-speaking (in this example, someone claimed that it was Chinese).

1 Cor 14:22 also says this:
"Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers." (ESV)

From this passage, the application of tongues is for the preaching of the gospel to unbelievers when God's Spirit works to enable the unbeliever to hear and understand the spoken word from the preacher (medium) in his own native language.

Rubbish. Paul never said that at all. I have explained in previous posts what the verse really means, and how Paul himself interpreted it. Go back and read them. There are a few good books on Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. I suggest you read them and improve your knowledge.

 

[PaulChristensen]

yass tongues as a sign is to unbelievers ... in the upper room there were no foreigners, no unbelievers ....

Picking one verse out of the whole chapter doesn't convince anyone. Also, the verse in its context, doesn't say what you think it says.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Maby you can find good morality, but this is no proof. I met Hindus with a giid morality and the blame the Western countrys (christians) to have a bad morality.
Two of my friends one father of 5 boys devorced his wife aber he attending of an pentecostal church. Another frien


So where is the proof for that pentecostalism was before Azuza and Topeka? Where was expierienced and taught that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit in eastern europe and africa?

Six munce ago I cuddent spel hisstorean, but now I are one!!!

 

[PaulChristensen]

To answer your question, yes, I do; but it goes beyond that. In my original post I mentioned the "latter rain" doctrine. I first started becoming skeptical of Pentecostalism when I started hearing about this. As far as I can tell, based on my understanding of scripture, it's a false doctrine. I can't find "latter rain" or a worldwide revival in the New Testament. All I see is a descent into deception and darkness. Pentecostalism, in my view, is a big part the deception. What's it been now, over 120 years since Topeka? If the gift of tongues that supposedly manifested in 1900 was a sign of the Lord's imminent return, what's taking so long? I wouldn't call 120 years very imminent.

Here is a good paragraph that describes opposition to Pentecostalism:

"There are two kinds of ignorance: The one springs from thoughtless zeal, and it does not simply reject the good, but thinks it is evil. Although nobody sins in ignorance in such a way as not to be accused of a bad conscience in the sight of God, there being always a mixture of hypocrisy, or pride or scorn; sometimes however, judgment and all understanding are so stifled in a man's mind that nothing except plain ignorance is apparent, not only to others but also to himself."

 

[Aidan1]

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works? The Pentecostals I know ARE Living Proof!


That the Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission. Yet you ask like a spoiled brat " where's the proof".


Where is your proof of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.

I'm sure those who are under the influence will be greatly impressed with your bible reading. But to pray for them to be healed, don't pray for them to be set free because it won't happen just read the bible you don't believe works today ok guy.

I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India and I know that the Lord works today.
That is for my without doubt. But I doubt to the empty promisses which are given from pentecostals and charismatics about healing.
When people attend a healing service and leave it still sick, then the problem is not with the sick people, but with the people who promiss healing. Who give a false promiss. Thats in my eyes deceiver.
When people came to Jesus while he was on earth, they left Him healed.
Jesus healings and the apostles healinhs had a purpose for a special time.
What Jesus said to Thomas? You believe in me because you saw my wounds. Blessed be those who believe without seeing.
I have not deneyed that Jesus is doing healings and miracles today. But I dont believe the false claimes I often hear from pentecostals and charismatics.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India and I know that the Lord works today.
That is for my without doubt. But I doubt to the empty promisses which are given from pentecostals and charismatics about healing.
When people attend a healing service and leave it still sick, then the problem is not with the sick people, but with the people who promiss healing. Who give a false promiss. Thats in my eyes deceiver.
When people came to Jesus while he was on earth, they left Him healed.
Jesus healings and the apostles healinhs had a purpose for a special time.
What Jesus said to Thomas? You believe in me because you saw my wounds. Blessed be those who believe without seeing.
I have not deneyed that Jesus is doing healings and miracles today. But I dont believe the false claimes I often hear from pentecostals and charismatics.

It is a bit of a generalisation to say that about all Pentecostals and Charismatics. Not all of them are the "name and claim it" band of merry men led by the ministry equivalent of Robbing Hood.

The best that anyone can say as part of a prayer of faith is: "Jesus heals you", and then leave it to the Lord to do the work. A person is not healed by "faith", but only when the symptoms disappear and the healing is verified by medical tests.

Most sensible Pentecostals and Charismatics will never say that a person is actually healed until the actual results show they are genuinely healed. In terms of whether people get healed or not, they will gladly say that God is sovereign and He does or does not do, what He thinks is right, and has a good reason for it. But there is a lunatic fringe of name it and claim it pelicans who blame the sick person for not having enough faith. Most honest Pentecostals and Charismatics will definitely oppose that type of rubbish!

 

[PaulChristensen]

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works? The Pentecostals I know ARE Living Proof!


That the Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission. Yet you ask like a spoiled brat " where's the proof".


Where is your proof of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.

I'm sure those who are under the influence will be greatly impressed with your bible reading. But to pray for them to be healed, don't pray for them to be set free because it won't happen just read the bible you don't believe works today ok guy.

Well said!

 

[PaulChristensen]

Then what is in your eyes an pentecostal?
The name pentecostal came up with the events in Topeka and Azuza. And the teaching that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Which you cant find before. You can find speaking in tongues before in Christian groups and in sects, but not this particular teaching.
So the persons you mentioned where no pentecostals.
Today all pentecostals and charismatics have common, that they teach that without speaking in tongues no baptism with the Holy Spirit for empowerment, ore as some believe ( oneness pentecostals ) no salvation.

Pentecostals are merely those who believe in the continuation of the spiritual gifts. You are confusing them with the Pentecostalist movement that started around the turn of the 20th Century.

 

[Aidan1]

It is a bit of a generalisation to say that about all Pentecostals and Charismatics. Not all of them are the "name and claim it" band of merry men led by the ministry equivalent of Robbing Hood.

The best that anyone can say as part of a prayer of faith is: "Jesus heals you", and then leave it to the Lord to do the work. A person is not healed by "faith", but only when the symptoms disappear and the healing is verified by medical tests.

Most sensible Pentecostals and Charismatics will never say that a person is actually healed until the actual results show they are genuinely healed. In terms of whether people get healed or not, they will gladly say that God is sovereign and He does or does not do, what He thinks is right, and has a good reason for it. But there is a lunatic fringe of name it and claim it pelicans who blame the sick person for not having enough faith. Most honest Pentecostals and Charismatics will definitely oppose that type of rubbish!

Thats fine! But my Focus is not on" all charismatics and pentecostals", but on " empty promisses"" false promisses"
Its an fact that mostly pentecostals and charismatics teach this then other Christians.

 

[Aidan1]

Pentecostals are merely those who believe in the continuation of the spiritual gifts. You are confusing them with the Pentecostalist movement that started around the turn of the 20th Century.

Well, 120 years after Topeka and Azusa, the pentecostal movement has changed and splittet much worldwide. Added to this are the charismatic movements which entered the different denominations.
In their theologie they often are different to each other. But the one thing they have common:
The teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign the gift of speaking in tongues. And yes of course the believing that special the gifts: speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie are the same as in the Corinth of Pauls days.
I suppose this Definition is not made from pentecostals ore charismatics.

 

[Gideon300]

A structure is only as solid as its foundation. In this short study into Pentecostalism's origins we'll discover whether it's built on solid rock or sinking sand.

Charles Fox Parham, Pentecostalism's acknowledged founder, spent the summer of 1900 at Frank W. Sanford's Holiness commune in Shiloh, Maine. While there, he learned of the Holiness doctrine of an approaching "latter rain," that is, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit which would fall on people as it had in the church's early day. This would be a sign of Christ's imminent return. What scriptural basis is there for the latter rain doctrine? James says: "Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains."—James 5:7 This is the only verse from which a case might be made for a latter rain. So we must understand clearly what this verse actually says. Is James instructing his readers to be patient for the latter rain or for Christ's return. He's clearly encouraging them be patient for the Lord's return using an agricultural metaphor to make his point. There are no other New Testament scriptures from which we can put together a "latter rain" doctrine; it simply isn't taught. In fact, rather than worldwide revival, the scriptures clearly reveal the world will descend into darkness before the Lord's return.

While at Shiloh, Sanford filled Parham's head with tales of foreign missionaries who had spontaneously begun speaking the language of their foreign hosts without ever learning the language. In other words, they could preach to them in their own languages using the gift of tongues. But what evidence is there of this ever really happening? None that I'm aware of. But Parham was fascinated; he was convinced that this was a sure sign of the end-time and Christ's imminent return.

Returning to Topeka, Kansas, Parham established a missionary training center. In December of 1900, he challenged his students to find evidence of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit like what happened in Acts 2. He also suggested that the surest evidence of this would be speaking in tongues. At their New Year's eve service, 1901, right on schedule, Agnes Ozman asked Parham to lay hands on her head and pray she would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ozman began singing in an unknown language, which someone identified as Chinese.

What's strange about this picture? First of all, there's no evidence from the New Testament that missionaries ever used the gift of tongues to preach the good news. When missionaries did eventually go to foreign countries after the "latter rains" started falling, they failed miserably. Secondly, notice that Parham gave his students a suggestion which they pondered for a month. This wasn't a spontaneous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Parham orchestrated the whole thing.

So, the question I leave you with is this: If the tree is bad, how can the fruit possibly be good?

Your initial premise is false. The restoration of the truth regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit goes back at least as far as John and Charles Wesley. It was a key manifestation in the Welsh revival of the early 1900's.

There have been many false manifestations purporting to be the Holy Spirit. There is a great deal of ignorance, which leads to the acceptance of things such as the "Toronto Blessing". The TB was a world wide phenomenon. However, there were more localised versions in places around the world before the 1990's. That includes Wales during the Welsh revival.

There are two dangers. One is to reject the true baptism of the Holy Spirit and so miss out on the blessings that accompany it. The other is to obsess over the Gift and neglect the Giver.

Receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is very simple. There is no need to wait, no need to fast, spend hours in prayer or any other religious gymnastics. The Holy Spirit was poured out by the Lord Jesus, as the result of His exaltation. The Holy Spirit is here, now and available to all who are born again.

Be warned. There are dangers attached to receiving the Holy Spirit. Satan fears those with power and authority. One of his first tricks is to flood the receiver with spiritual pride. And that is one reason that Pentecostals are so easily deceived. It's not the only potential problem, but I think I've said enough for now. I welcome any comments, whether you agree or disagree.

 

[CS1]

I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India and I know that the Lord works today.
That is for my without doubt. But I doubt to the empty promisses which are given from pentecostals and charismatics about healing.
When people attend a healing service and leave it still sick, then the problem is not with the sick people, but with the people who promiss healing. Who give a false promiss. Thats in my eyes deceiver.
When people came to Jesus while he was on earth, they left Him healed.
Jesus healings and the apostles healinhs had a purpose for a special time.
What Jesus said to Thomas? You believe in me because you saw my wounds. Blessed be those who believe without seeing.
I have not deneyed that Jesus is doing healings and miracles today. But I dont believe the false claimes I often hear from pentecostals and charismatics.

was? you just hate those who have the name pentacostel and we don't claim to heal are you hard of hearing? I claim God heals today and yes I have prayed for people and God healed them. You think we believe we can heal? LOL, there is no doctrine in the pentecostal church of three I know of and the one I am a minister in where you can find in writing where it says man heals.

You are baring of false witness. Jesus said these signs will follow them that believe after Thomas saw Jesus rose from the dead.

You look in the bible to see what you think God doesn't do anymore. You said

: "I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India"

Was? why not anymore? You retired or something? That's right God is impressed with your moral living right. You don't have to obey the great commission because you have done so much? Hey, guess what Jesus said He could not do many works to you know why?

Their unbelief. I to have left the church after being prayed for still sick and I guess you think that is God's fault? You are just a hateful person.

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works?


The Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission.

Where is your proof TODAY of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.



Have you ever prayed for a sick person? You are fast to jump on those who do and are not healed as you say what about you? Do you pray for the sick and were they healed OR do you just attack those who exercise their faith?


If you pray for the sick tell us now and if they were not healed why not? You bring false HOPE? OR did you say it was God's will that they were not healed AFTER YOU PRAYED FOR THEM do you pray for your sick family and friends? Or do you tell them Good luck?