Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

[Aidan1]

Not all what is written in the bible is for all times. So we pick and choose the bits that we like? Oh, I forgot, most churches do pick and choose the bits that they like.

And what is the pentecostal teaching since Topeka and Azusa?

So you living according the OT law?
I have written often enough what is the pentecostal teaching about the Holy Spirit.

 

[CS1]

Pentecostal and certainly Charismatic churches do not uniformly believe that "no speaking in tongues = no baptism in the Holy Ghost" in fact so far as I know only the AOG teach it.

Bunyan in the 2nd part of Pilgrim's Progress alludes to Pentecostals by that name, not I add in a complimentary way. He had a spat going with George Fox and the Quakers who was known for his prophecies and healing miracles. So Bunyan was almost certainly referring to them.

The one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit never has to ask or wonder "have I been so baptized?" it is such a distinct work, being filled every day with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit is another kettle of fish.

C. H. Spurgeon was certainly baptized in the Holy Spirit [we read many manifestations in his life which show that] quite apart from his outstanding love of the bible, his gift of preaching, his word of knowledge and word of wisdom. C. H. Spurgeon was pentecostal by experience.

But this is true throughout church history, men and women have arisen with remarkable gifts of knowledge and wisdom even prophetic gifts, so SOME gifts and charismata have always been recognised. Therefore if God can furnish His church with knowledge and wisdom and faith why do folks baulk at tongues and interpretation?

If these other gifts and workings of the Holy Spirit have not ceased nor have tongues and interpretation ceased.

the AOG teaches still the initial evidence or prophecying

 

[CS1]

So you living according the OT law?
I have written often enough what is the pentecostal teaching about the Holy Spirit.

you don't know what the Pentecostals teach and that is laughable. You search out od a bias and judge all on those who are on tv and youtube. They do not represent the churches in the trenches. IF you really want to know go to a small one and see what they do feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, praying for the sick YOu have an issue with that? You are just hateful.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Wesley founded what is today the Methodist Church; not Pentecostalism.

The church historical records show conclusively that the Methodist Holiness people described themselves as Pentecostal and believed that entire sanctification by faith involved the baptism with the Spirit.

 

[Aidan1]

you don't know what the Pentecostals teach and that is laughable. You search out od a bias and judge all on those who are on tv and youtube. They do not represent the churches in the trenches. IF you really want to know go to a small one and see what they do feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, praying for the sick YOu have an issue with that? You are just hateful.

This answer was not for you.

 

[Aidan1]

you don't know what the Pentecostals teach and that is laughable. You search out od a bias and judge all on those who are on tv and youtube. They do not represent the churches in the trenches. IF you really want to know go to a small one and see what they do feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, praying for the sick YOu have an issue with that? You are just hateful.

CS1, this answer was not for you. You believe that all scripture is to follow for us today?

Well, so often you call me hatefull in your posts, that I must believe you are right.

I believe that the Lord is not giving all believers the same duty. So not every follower of Christ must become an Pastor ore Evangelist.
But every believer should give witness to the hope he has in Christ.

Its according my understanding also the question of the call and the leading of the Holy Spirit in what and where I serve the Lord.

Btw, i dont watch pentecostal ore charismatic preachers in TV ore on youtube.

What I know from pentecostals i have from their churchwebsites.
Ore from history reports, f.e. when the pentecostal movment came to germany in 1907
And from my own expieriences with them.

Why I dont tell you what I do? I fear you will make it laughable.

 

[Magpi89]

Rubbish. Paul never said that at all. I have explained in previous posts what the verse really means, and how Paul himself interpreted it. Go back and read them. There are a few good books on Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. I suggest you read them and improve your knowledge.

Ok. You can drop the link and I'll take a look.

Perhaps you can also review this reference to support my earlier reply.
https://www.thegospelofchrist.com/knowledge-base/tgoc--t2cat

 

[Evmur]

CS1, this answer was not for you. You believe that all scripture is to follow for us today?

Well, so often you call me hatefull in your posts, that I must believe you are right.

I believe that the Lord is not giving all believers the same duty. So not every follower of Christ must become an Pastor ore Evangelist.
But every believer should give witness to the hope he has in Christ.

Its according my understanding also the question of the call and the leading of the Holy Spirit in what and where I serve the Lord.

Btw, i dont watch pentecostal ore charismatic preachers in TV ore on youtube.

What I know from pentecostals i have from their churchwebsites.
Ore from history reports, f.e. when the pentecostal movment came to germany in 1907
And from my own expieriences with them.

Why I dont tell you what I do? I fear you will make it laughable.

Was it co incidental? the rejection by the German evangelicals of the Welsh revival that swept Europe and the Pentecostal which followed in it's train and the 1st world war?

Most of those who were involved in the Welsh revival became the leaders of the early Pentecostal movement.

 

[Angela53510]

Then what is in your eyes an pentecostal?
The name pentecostal came up with the events in Topeka and Azuza. And the teaching that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Which you cant find before. You can find speaking in tongues before in Christian groups and in sects, but not this particular teaching.
So the persons you mentioned where no pentecostals.
Today all pentecostals and charismatics have common, that they teach that without speaking in tongues no baptism with the Holy Spirit for empowerment, ore as some believe ( oneness pentecostals ) no salvation.

I am not now a Pentecostal or charismatic. However, I was the first 15 years I was saved. To me it is a shallow doctrine, and mostly experiential. I prefer to rely on the Bible for my doctrine, and let the Holy Spirit, who is NOT an extrovert, lead and guide me!

In fact, a cult, the Oneness Pentecostals are the ones who perpetuate this non-biblical idea that you aren't saved if you don't speak in tongues as well as a bunch of other heresies, like not believing in the Trinity. I have no problem fellowshipping with Pentecostals, even if they tend to sometimes look down on people who haven't had this so-called second blessing.

I'm not worried about denominational issues that are not central to salvation. But, as I said, Oneness Pentecostals have added to the gospel. That does affect salvation.

And I did once believe I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But it became apparent I was lying to myself and God. Just because something was written in the Bible, doesn't mean it applies to us, today.

As for why Pentecostalism has lasted for 115 years, I believe that emotionalism sucks people in, plus charismatic leaders suck people into their sect. But no, most Pentecostals are not bad people or even deluded. And God is dealing with us all, and he knows where each believer stands, and where they need to change to be transformed.

 

[BenFTW]

2. I think we should consider truth holistically. You have tried to make the case of believers speaking in tongues which I do not disagree with you. But we should also consider what 1 Cor 14:22 says on the purpose of tongues which are meant for an audience of unbelievers.

How can you say that the gift of tongues is meant for “an audience of unbelievers”, when in the very next verse (1 Corinthians 14:23) it says that if an unbeliever walks in on everyone speaking in tongues they will think you are mad? It actually is endorsing prophesying in the case of unbelievers because they will be convinced (it says) and it says also “falling down on his face he will worship God and report God is in you of a truth.” So prophecy in this case is beneficial for the unbeliever as opposed to tongues.

 

[Aidan1]

I am not now a Pentecostal or charismatic. However, I was the first 15 years I was saved. To me it is a shallow doctrine, and mostly experiential. I prefer to rely on the Bible for my doctrine, and let the Holy Spirit, who is NOT an extrovert, lead and guide me!

In fact, a cult, the Oneness Pentecostals are the ones who perpetuate this non-biblical idea that you aren't saved if you don't speak in tongues as well as a bunch of other heresies, like not believing in the Trinity. I have no problem fellowshipping with Pentecostals, even if they tend to sometimes look down on people who haven't had this so-called second blessing.

I'm not worried about denominational issues that are not central to salvation. But, as I said, Oneness Pentecostals have added to the gospel. That does affect salvation.

And I did once believe I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But it became apparent I was lying to myself and God. Just because something was written in the Bible, doesn't mean it applies to us, today.

As for why Pentecostalism has lasted for 115 years, I believe that emotionalism sucks people in, plus charismatic leaders suck people into their sect. But no, most Pentecostals are not bad people or even deluded. And God is dealing with us all, and he knows where each believer stands, and where they need to change to be transformed.

Good post, I dont think that most of pentecostals ore charismatics are bad people.
My believing was long time, that it makes no matter in the Mission ministrie which denomination someone belongs. The Main point is that people will be saved. So I had no problem to work together with indian pentecostals. But what I experienced was that charismatics destroy the ministry. Coming in churches and Split them, working behind the back and try to convince the believers from their teachings.
Thats why I avoid to work together with charismatics.
Today, i speak from germany, you find charismatics in nearly every denomination. And their influence is growing in a bad way.
Since I became Christian, I saw never that one denomination is better then the other. In heaven there will be none denomination.

What I recognice is that non teaching is splitting christianity more ( and I dont mean the name christianity) then the pentecostal/charismatic teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
On the other side is to see that charismatics and pentecostals ( not all) are the engine for the worldwide ekomene. On the cost of the truth of the word of God.

 

[Magpi89]

How can you say that the gift of tongues is meant for “an audience of unbelievers”, when in the very next verse (1 Corinthians 14:23) it says that if an unbeliever walks in on everyone speaking in tongues they will think you are mad?

Actually, I will beg to differ that Verse 23 supports Verse 22.


Let's back up a bit to verse 21
In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”

"This people" refers to the Jews or God's people (believers). Paul is using Verse 21 (or the reference from Isaiah 28:11-12) to logically point that because his people do not listen, then the use of tongues is meant for unbelievers.


Again there is no ambiguity in verse 22:
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.


Verse 23 gives us an example and shows us why:

If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Let's say I'm a member of this congregation in Verse 23. And there is a stirring by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. The Holy Spirit is one Spirit and moves in oneness with God and Christ. I start speaking in tongues, everyone in my pew starts speaking in tongues, and the preacher at the pulpit starts speaking in tongues, we would be speaking in one accord but in different languages and utterances? To the unbeliever or the outsider, if he chances upon this scene happening within the church, wouldn't he conclude that we are a raving, mad bunch? Furthermore, there is no edification among believers to speak in tongues because we do not understand ourselves or each other (without another gift of interpretation of tongues). Therefore the conclusion is that the use of tongues, cannot be for believers within the congregation. This example shows that speaking tongues among believers does not make sense. Hence, tongues is meant for unbelievers.


Verse 24-25, on the other hand shows us an opposite setting.

But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Let's say I'm a member of this congregation in Verse 24-25. And there is a stirring by the Holy Spirit to prophesy. The Holy Spirit is one Spirit and moves in oneness with God and Christ. I start speaking prophesying, everyone in my pew starts prophesying, and the preacher at the pulpit starts prophesying, we would be prophesying in one accord and in the same language. To the unbeliever or the outsider, if he chances upon this scene happening within the church and he understands the language that is being used for prophesy, he will leave at the very least concluding that God is among us and in the best-case scenario, a repentant and new believer in Christ. This example shows that prophesying among believers makes sense. Hence, prophesy is meant for believers.


I hope my not-so-short reply will convince some in this post that I have at least given this passage serious thought before coming to this conclusion.

 

[CS1]

CS1, this answer was not for you. You believe that all scripture is to follow for us today?

Well, so often you call me hatefull in your posts, that I must believe you are right.

I believe that the Lord is not giving all believers the same duty. So not every follower of Christ must become an Pastor ore Evangelist.
But every believer should give witness to the hope he has in Christ.

Its according my understanding also the question of the call and the leading of the Holy Spirit in what and where I serve the Lord.

Btw, i dont watch pentecostal ore charismatic preachers in TV ore on youtube.

What I know from pentecostals i have from their churchwebsites.
Ore from history reports, f.e. when the pentecostal movment came to germany in 1907
And from my own expieriences with them.

Why I dont tell you what I do? I fear you will make it laughable.

the great commission was given to all the body of Christ, not just the fivefold. Church websites? Please be honest. You were alive in 1907? If you do the work of the Lord and God has called you to do I WILL NOT LAUGH AT that I will say amen. Yet you mock and scoff at the work God has called others to do and suggest your 1907 experience is a normalized thing with all? I guess I should feel the same way with your country and people from 1942 to 1945 huh?

 

[Gideon300]

It was also around Xmas in 1970 that I realized. to my shame, that I had neglected acting like a Christian. I was probably on drugs, but couldn't shake the conviction in my mind. I ultimately went over to one of my best friends and told him, frankly, I'm giving my life to Jesus. I've never looked back. I lost all of my friends in the world. I gained new friends in Christ.

Some of my worldly friends had become associated with a Pentecostal Jesus People group in my area. And so I attended Monday evening gatherings to praise the Lord, and Sunday services at a flower shop where an ex-Lutheran pastor was trying to start a new church. He had been kicked out of the Lutheran church for teaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and "speaking in tongues."

A spiritual explosion came out of the people that met at that time, and many of them are still going strong today. The Holy Spirit is very real in the lives of these people. I can't say that their doctrine is always right, nor that what they experience is always "God." I don't believe we have a definitive "Prayer Language" that all of us should experience. But I do believe that some have the gift of Tongues.

Watchman Nee remains very high on my list of influences--perhaps the most influential teacher in my life. But there's been many Penteocstal/Charismatic teachers who have taught me much throughout the years. And inspired teaching is far superior to strictly academic instruction. Every genuine pastor knows that.

Could not agree more with you. I first came across Pentecostals through Teen Challenge Hawaii then Sydney Australia. I also went to a small meeting in Hong Kong where I thought a woman was praying in Chinese - my first encounter with tongues. I met a man a couple of years older than me who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. He encouraged me, but it was a book by Pat Boone that finally convinced me.

Some years later I went through a really dark period, gave up ministry (youth leader) and left the church I was in. I met an Electrical Contractor who knew Jesus in a way that I did not know possible. I was associated with him for over 25 years until he passed away. I owe him the greatest debt. I had a great struggle over my identity in Christ. I always was looking for a "breakthrough". One night he ministered to me in the most simple words, yet that cut through my confusion and I saw the light. The breakthrough was that I didn't need a breakthrough! Much Christian teaching focuses on behaviour. Not enough focuses on who we are in Christ. If we get the latter right, the former becomes so much easier.

I don't pray in tongues. Those who do are obviously blessed by it. The most spiritual man I knew was baptised in the Holy Spirit but never spoke in tongues. I dislike pigeonholing people.

I am well aware that there is a lot of counterfeit to beware of. A friend of mine received a false tongue. She was not even saved when someone prayed for her and told her just to not speak English but whatever came out of her mouth. So she did. It was meaningless babble. She got born again and filled with the Spirit. She speaks in tongues now, but not publicly. We do not encourage that in our meetings.

 

[CS1]

Could not agree more with you. I first came across Pentecostals through Teen Challenge Hawaii then Sydney Australia. I also went to a small meeting in Hong Kong where I thought a woman was praying in Chinese - my first encounter with tongues. I met a man a couple of years older than me who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. He encouraged me, but it was a book by Pat Boone that finally convinced me.

Some years later I went through a really dark period, gave up ministry (youth leader) and left the church I was in. I met an Electrical Contractor who knew Jesus in a way that I did not know possible. I was associated with him for over 25 years until he passed away. I owe him the greatest debt. I had a great struggle over my identity in Christ. I always was looking for a "breakthrough". One night he ministered to me in the most simple words, yet that cut through my confusion and I saw the light. The breakthrough was that I didn't need a breakthrough! Much Christian teaching focuses on behaviour. Not enough focuses on who we are in Christ. If we get the latter right, the former becomes so much easier.

I don't pray in tongues. Those who do are obviously blessed by it. The most spiritual man I knew was baptised in the Holy Spirit but never spoke in tongues. I dislike pigeonholing people.

I am well aware that there is a lot of counterfeit to beware of. A friend of mine received a false tongue. She was not even saved when someone prayed for her and told her just to not speak English but whatever came out of her mouth. So she did. It was meaningless babble. She got born again and filled with the Spirit. She speaks in tongues now, but not publicly. We do not encourage that in our meetings.

with every gift from God, man and women have misused. That in no way means the gift is not for today. There are those who are using the gifts properly and with integrity. No gift to the church has been more abused than that of the office of Pastor. YET That gift is still needed today as Eph 4:11 tells us.

 

[Aidan1]

the great commission was given to all the body of Christ, not just the fivefold. Church websites? Please be honest. You were alive in 1907? If you do the work of the Lord and God has called you to do I WILL NOT LAUGH AT that I will say amen. Yet you mock and scoff at the work God has called others to do and suggest your 1907 experience is a normalized thing with all? I guess I should feel the same way with your country and people from 1942 to 1945 huh?

Why you dont read what I wrote?

 

[CS1]

Why you dont read what I wrote?

why don't you respond to what I have written?

 

[Aidan1]

why don't you respond to what I have written?

Time Problem, and I am not shure I should do it to someone who calls me a hatefull person. Only because I dont believe in man made doctrine.

 

[CS1]

Time Problem, and I am not shure I should do it to someone who calls me a hatefull person. Only because I don't believe in the man-made doctrine.

Ok, no problem yet if you are speaking of all as you have and not fully knowing all who are Pentecostals as you have said about those who are, being ungodly and unbiblical makes you hateful. it is what you said that is hateful not what you don't believe.

many people here have said " I don't believe the Gift of Tongues is for today" Ok so be it no problem. I have not said they are unbiblical I disagree yet they are just as saved as I from what I see in the confession of Christ. I have heard those say the "tongues I see today is not the one in the Bible "

I agree to appoint with that because many have abused the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are two examples where I agree with those who do not see The gift of tongues for today. I did not say they were of the devil as you have, I have not saved them practicing pagan beliefs as you have. I have yet to even mention their denomination if they even have one. You have not provided anything edifying or testimony of how God is using you today.

Do you pray today for sick people are they healed? You said you leave it in the hands of God. But attack those who believe God heals today.

 

[randyk]

Could not agree more with you. I first came across Pentecostals through Teen Challenge Hawaii then Sydney Australia. I also went to a small meeting in Hong Kong where I thought a woman was praying in Chinese - my first encounter with tongues. I met a man a couple of years older than me who was baptised in the Holy Spirit. He encouraged me, but it was a book by Pat Boone that finally convinced me.

Some years later I went through a really dark period, gave up ministry (youth leader) and left the church I was in. I met an Electrical Contractor who knew Jesus in a way that I did not know possible. I was associated with him for over 25 years until he passed away. I owe him the greatest debt. I had a great struggle over my identity in Christ. I always was looking for a "breakthrough". One night he ministered to me in the most simple words, yet that cut through my confusion and I saw the light. The breakthrough was that I didn't need a breakthrough! Much Christian teaching focuses on behaviour. Not enough focuses on who we are in Christ. If we get the latter right, the former becomes so much easier.

I don't pray in tongues. Those who do are obviously blessed by it. The most spiritual man I knew was baptised in the Holy Spirit but never spoke in tongues. I dislike pigeonholing people.

I am well aware that there is a lot of counterfeit to beware of. A friend of mine received a false tongue. She was not even saved when someone prayed for her and told her just to not speak English but whatever came out of her mouth. So she did. It was meaningless babble. She got born again and filled with the Spirit. She speaks in tongues now, but not publicly. We do not encourage that in our meetings.

I think I see why you went down that winding path to a greater understanding in Christ. You exercise critical thinking, and God was leading you to use your mind. So many of us Christians have failed to do that. I got into lots of problems until I was led to do that.

You share some definite wisdom there. Thanks for the interesting story of your life. I'm sure there's tons more you could tell?