Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

I am saying belief is dispensationalism is not necessary for one to have a pre-trib view.

That's all.

The words of Jesus himself don't fit the theory so throw out the words of Jesus in favour of the theory.
Shameful corruption.

Look at your language
"Truly truly Matt 24 is beautifully and perfectly integrated into the pre-trib rapture."
As if the theory came first.

There is nothing beautiful about this level of deception.

He may be unique. I heard quite a bit about 'dispensations' when I took an end times class taught by someone who taught at a Bible College in an Assemblies of God.

The two Gospels idea has been called hyperdispensationalism.

Actually there are more than 2, if you consider the word gospel means good news.

But yes, the main 2 that people discuss about are the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumcision found in Galatians 2:7 KJV.

I prefer to call it Mid-Acts dispensationalism.

This is easily solved: Lucy, show us a verse in Matthew 24 that is clearly for the church.

No my dear but I only stated the facts. That being the Church is never mentioned anywhere in Matthew 24....

Your claim is false, again and again

Luke Chapter 21 is a parallel reading of Matthew Chapter 24, it's the Church Present, those persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, "Christians" who will be present during the tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the Second Coming

How long will you resist the very simple words of Gods truth below?

"Christians" (Ye Shall Be Hated Of All Men For My Name's Sake) Jesus Christ

(Ye Shall See Jerusalem Compassed With Armies)

(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

(Lift Up Your Heads; For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)

Luke 21:17-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Right.

The "ye / you / your" in the Olivet Discourse is a consistent "ye / you / your" and a "proleptic 'ye / you / your'," and is referring to "those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED".

At the time Jesus had spoken His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken to them anything regarding "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (pertaining solely to "the Church which is His body" [all those saved "in this present age [singular]"]).



This is pretty much why the disciples were still asking Him what they did, in Acts 1:6 "wilt thou AT THIS TIME restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (after having spent some 40-days with the post-resurrection Jesus speaking to them on the subject of "kingdom" per v.3), and Jesus responds with an answer that has to do with their question: ITS TIMING (not its "nature," which they understood correctly--they just did not grasp the TIMING issue).


People tend to want to read *themselves* INTO verses such as "and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My name's sake," when it is not speaking of themselves / us [NOW],
...but the believing remnant of Israel who WILL be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (in the specific, future, LIMITED time-period leading UP TO Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19... when in that future, LIMITED time-period [aka the 7-yr trib] THEIR "redemption" will INDEED be drawing "nigh"! [His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, pertaining to THEM / what THEY were promised (...not "US")... see also Lk22:30 / Matt19:28 (<--that ain't OUR TASK)])

All deliverance is beautiful.

Heaven is deliverance centered

Jesus mission from his own words " i was manifested to destroy the works of the devil"

God is not suffering centered. The devil is.

Postrib doctrine actually hopes for suffering
A suffering centered doctrine.

Lot and noah are 2 dynamics Jesus used.

Ask yourself why would Jesus compare his gathering of the saints to two prejudgement dynamics.

And postribs embrace the opposite.?????

You guys either skip or reframe it.

Even pretribs can not see the one taken/left for what it is.

Noah
Lot
One taken/left
Watch. Wait. Pray
10 virgins
All in the same 10 seconds of Jesus CLEARLY spelling out the rapture.
Unbelievably clear.

It is a billboard in the worlds front yard.

But hey skip it and of course skip your own deliverance.

Enjoy the beast party.

Heads will roll as promised

No. Pay close attention to the wording in these passages.

What you've put together as *supposedly* the SAME thing, are described in completely DISTINCT terms and having completely DISTINCT time-indicators supplied with them:

--one is "BEFORE the GREAT" (Joel 2:31 / Rev6:12 [6th SEAL]; BEFORE the SECOND HALF); the other is AFTER the GREAT [aspect of it; AFTER the SECOND HALF concludes] (Matt24:29-31)

--one is "reddish" in color (Joel 2:31 / Rev6:12 [6th SEAL]); the other is "dark"


...completely DISTINCT in every way. (Are you color-blind, perhaps? )



No wonder people cannot grasp the "chronology"...



See these two posts also:

Post #49 - https://christianchat.com/threads/w...nd-what-does-it-represent.198648/post-4543513

Post #55 - https://christianchat.com/threads/w...nd-what-does-it-represent.198648/post-4543543

I don't think your explanation really undoes what the various scriptures agree on. The sun darkens and the moon turns red before Jesus returns and that's indisputable. I quoted three verses showing this. It's absolutely correct.

Jesus returns after the sun is darkened and the moon turns red, I've proved it using Matthew 24:29, Acts 2:20, and Revelation 6:12.

When Jesus returns He'll bring wrath according to the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:16-17
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And at the 7th and final trump Jesus returns with wrath, performs the first resurrection and the post-tribulation rapture:

7th trumpet
Revelation 11:18
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

7th trumpet
Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

7th trumpet
1 Corinthians 15:52
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I think where you're getting hung up on is you think the great tribulation is God's wrath; it isn't God's wrath. You're also confused how Jesus returns with wrath before the great tribulation because He doesn't, yet you have to somehow find a way to undo the wrath the Bible says Jesus brings when He returns.

Your eschatology is a train wreck. I can only show you these truths and hope a lightbulb comes on.

There's nothing in Matthew 24:29-31 about "the moon turning RED"

... you are simply "imagining" that.



(rather: "the moon shall not give her light" i.e. it's "dark"... ; ... not anything like "red" / "into blood" / "became as blood" )





Sorry, you've not "proved" anything of the sort.


And anyone who "agreed" with your post is likewise not being careful with what the texts are actually conveying.

A non-issue. 'Israeli believer in Jesus is not mentioned either.

Matthew 24:29 says the moon will not give it's light. In a lunar eclipse the moon doesn't shine brightly, it looks dim and red like blood. Acts 2:20 say this happens before Jesus returns.

Revelation 6:12 confirms that these signs come before Jesus returns with God's wrath.

I get it, you think Revelation is written in chronological order so this rendering of the scripture is impossible for you to accept?

Rev6:12 corresponds with Joel 2:31, and that passage states specifically, "BEFORE the GREAT [aspect of it]"... (note: not "before the DOTL" in its ENTIRETY, either, as some suggest);

Matthew 24:29-31 literally states *this* thing (described in *this* text) takes place "AFTER" the GREAT aspect of the Trib yrs is concluded (whereas something "BEFORE" the GREAT aspect of those years, would be "BEFORE the AoD" Jesus refers to in v.15,21... but this is speaking of AFTER that entire second half is concluded)


I'm not sure how you can possibly *equate* them, either time-wise or description/appearance-wise.






[and yes, I do believe the SEALS are all before the TRUMPETS and VIALS... with FOUR of the TRUMPETS being in the FIRST HALF (SEALS prior to THOSE), and THREE of the TRUMPETS being from MID-TRIB and following]

You have like 15 one liners making statements and claims, without one reference of scripture?

You continue to push the 10 virgin scenario as a deadlock on a Pre-Trib rapture, It's the second coming, with 5 saved and 5 unsaved virgins, it's that simple

Then you move to the standard fear tactic, believe my teaching or The Beast and his death squads are gonna get ya, 1970's a thief in the night, Tim La Haye Left Behind Sci-Fi

Yes they falsely believe and teach the book of Revelation is in chronological order, when it is taught in parallel teachings of same events

This false teaching binds the minds of readers from clearly understanding the Revelation, and allows for a false teaching of multiple accounts, when it's actually the same event (A Lie)

Revelation 6:15-17 & Revelation 11:18 below is a prime example of the parallel teaching, you see the same great day of wrath in both accounts

Revelation 6:15-17KJV
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:18KJV
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Greek grammar scholars inform me that this verb in verse 18 ("is come" - kjv) is governed by the verb preceding this one in the sentence (starting in v.17), where the 24 elders (same ppl talking) are saying, "... because THOU HAST TAKEN [PERFECT indicative] to thee thy great power and hast reigned" (where the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" refers to what began at some point prior to this/in the PAST, and is continuing into the present...).

The rest of the verbs in that same sentence (vv.17 AND 18) then follow suit (rather than "jump around," time-wise):

--"and hast reigned"

--[thy wrath] "came"


(rather than its saying, "is just now arriving" at the 6th SEAL. No.)

This is the very error that began the dreaded prewrath theory of the rapture. Van Kampen said He studied both these mentions of the cosmic signs and found them the same event! (I wonder how well He did in school?)

In Matthew 24: " Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her lightDarkened: skotizo Strong's:

to cover with darkness, to darken
to be covered with darkness, be darkened
of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

Think: how is someone to see the sun if it is deprived of light?
How is one to see the moon when the sun is not reflecting off the moon?
I submit, both are invisible.
In Revelation very late in the week, one of the vials will CAUSE total darkness. God simply turns off all lights, so not even any starlight. Then Jesus spoke of his coming appearing like lightning flashing across the sky. that hints strongly of darkness also.

Compare with the 6th seal:
Sun appears black as sackcloth - Exactly what is seen at a total eclipse. in other words, people SEE the sun to know.
The moon to appear blood red - Exactly what is seen at a total eclipse. in other words, people SEE the moon to know.

Think: The 6th seal is chapters before the abomination or midpoint of the week, proven to be in chapters 11 to 13. Therefore it is before ANY PART of the 70th week. So we have a TIMING issue.

In fact, the book of Joel covers BOTH these signs, and if we look up the Hebrew we find to totally different words. Joel 2 is the 6th seal sign, but Joel 3 is the Matthew 24 sign: two different signs for two different purposes - separated by over 7 years.

You keep trying to push wrath backwards as if God is angry with His martyrs! It won't work. I think the real truth is, an aorist verb is just what the word itself means: undefined as for time. Another Greek scholor wrote, "not inflected to show tense. About all we can know is, WRATH at that point in John's narrative. Whether it started long before, seconds before, or at that moment or even future is not given in the word.