Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[lamad]

Already have.

At the 7th and final trumpet Jesus regins forevermore, He reigns with the righteous, judges the wicked, and rewards His saints. The 7th trumpet is also the time of the post-tribulation rapture, and resurrection.

I've proved it with these verses. Good luck undoing what I just proved to you happens at the 7th trumpet.

Isaiah 27:13
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:52
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Revelation 11:15-18

My guess is, these will all be non sequiturs. Let's look

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem. You are trying to prove that the 7th trumpet in Revelation is Paul's last trump. So you show us a trumpet in Isaiah. How can you prove this Isaiah trumpet has anything to with any NT trumpet? Non Sequitur.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is after the trib and it is HIs coming, In revelation in chapter 19. Why would ANYONE compare and make believe something in Rev. 19 is the same as something in Rev. 11? Always remember, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit, will be proven wrong. Just wondering: does "last trump" mean God sends angels to collect all trumpets so there can never be another trumpet sound? What about the 1000 year reign or even eternity?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Yes, we get this, but if we compare with 1 Thes. scripture we find this trumpet will sound just before wrath starts: 6th seal. Keep in mind, this certainly will be the "last trump" of the church age! The rapture will end the church age.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Right, and from chapter 5, just before wrath.

Keep in mind, NO ONE EVER before you has ever proved this. And you think you can? Perhaps you can - to yourself.

 

[Runningman]

Paul's Last trump is the last of a series that will be sounded WAY before the 7th trumpet. Why try and build a doctrine from one verse? Read ALL of Paul's writings on the rapture. It will come JUST before wrath. Do we throw that out because John wrote of 7 trumpets that would come later.

No, we don't throw out scripture, we UNDERSTAND it: Paul's rapture is just before wrath and in Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. How amazing then, John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter!

We agree on a pre-wrath rapture. What we disgree on is that the great tribulation being Gods wrath. The wrath of God doesn't come until after the great tribulation.

The Olivet Discourse teaches post-tribulation rapture before the wrath of God. Don't just ingore the scriptures that contradict the pre-trib doctrine. Take them all into account and use them to understand Revelation. If something in Revelation doesn't mesh with the Olivet Discourse then start over.

 

[lamad]

You had better do a study of trumpets my friend. The astute and diligent Bible student knows that there are many many trumpets and all kinds of different shouts and calls, all for various purposes and times.

Perhaps you should also consider that the book of Joshua & the battle of Jericho is a type and a microcosm and has parallels with the book of Revelation.......including the trumpets. Which has parallels with the fall feasts.

Joshua/Jesus taking Israel/the world by divinely decreed conquest.....

His mind is like a steel trap: he reads of a trumpet in one verse, and a trumpet in other, and SLAM! His mind slams shut: they HAVE to be speaking of the same trumpet!

Without a doubt he has done this with the sun and moon: "after the trib of those days, " and at the 6th seal.

 

[cv5]

Already have.

At the 7th and final trumpet Jesus regins forevermore, He reigns with the righteous, judges the wicked, and rewards His saints. The 7th trumpet is also the time of the post-tribulation rapture, and resurrection.

I've proved it with these verses. Good luck undoing what I just proved to you happens at the 7th trumpet.

Isaiah 27:13
Matthew 24:29-31
1 Corinthians 15:52
1 Thessalonians 4:16
Revelation 11:15-18

As of now you are 100% wrong 100% of the time.....lol. Page after page after page......

 

[cv5]

His mind is like a steel trap: he reads of a trumpet in one verse, and a trumpet in other, and SLAM! His mind slams shut: they HAVE to be speaking of the same trumpet!

Without a doubt he has done this with the sun and moon: "after the trib of those days, " and at the 6th seal.

Pretty much yup. The guy couldn't exegete his way out of a paper bag.

 

[lamad]

We agree on a pre-wrath rapture. What we disgree on is that the great tribulation being Gods wrath. The wrath of God doesn't come until after the great tribulation.

The Olivet Discourse teaches post-tribulation rapture before the wrath of God. Don't just ingore the scriptures that contradict the pre-trib doctrine. Take them all into account and use them to understand Revelation. If something in Revelation doesn't mesh with the Olivet Discourse then start over.

Ah! The light bulb goes off: So you are of the prewrath camp! You perhaps did not know that prewrath is the worst of all rapture theories - requiring a complete rewrite of Revelation?

It started because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not understand that the signs after the trib could not in any way be the same signs before the trip - the 6th seal. So the MORPHED Revelation to fit their theory.

Suppose we ask John where the days of GT are?
First, WHO CAUSES the days of GT? Simple, Satan and his wrath working through the Beast and False Prophet. Did you just overlook the fact that John does not see their rise to power until chapter 13?

Did you not notice that God warns people not to take the mark in chapter 14? This tells us the mark is not being enforced or not made yet by the time of God's warning.

Did you not see this?

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Notice that the beheaded from the days of GT BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15! And prewrath imagines GT in the seals! They could not be further from the truth! And all because two men thought the signs in the sun and moon BEFORE the trib, were the same signs AFTER the trib - when in truth they will be seen over 7 years apart!

Where does God's wrath BEGIN in Revelation? With the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. Then the 70th week or "trib" starts at the 7th seal. The "trib" is the 7th seal to the 7th vial. It is ALL WRATH because it is all in the DAY of His WRATH. So much for prewrath theory.

If you look at the OT on the Day of hte Lord, you will find it is a day of His wrath, where He comes to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. When we compare the trumpet judgments, we see that is exactly what God is doing. There can be NO DOUBT the trumpet judgments are the first salvo's of the Day of the Lord - which IS the day of His wrath. Then in the bowls we read that they are FILLED with His wrath. And God will pour out the bowls of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. So the days of GT and God's wrath are simultaneous! How in the world then can they be separated with TIME? Impossible. This proves your first statement as FALSE:
"The wrath of God doesn't come until after the great tribulation." You don't understand where the days of GT take place in Revelation.

The Olivet Discourse teaches post-tribulation rapture before the wrath of God

Here you escape reality in different directions! The discourse does teach a GATHERING. Again, people have been trying unsuccessfully for many years to prove this gathering is Paul's rapture. The truth is, IT CAN'T BE. The timing is all wrong and it gathers from the wrong planet!

AGain you show your ignorance as to WHEN God's wrath begins. Read the 6th seal over and over: maybe you will get it. Study the first trumpet judgments and see that they are God destroying the world and the sinners in the world: the Day of the Lord from the OT.

 

[Runningman]

His mind is like a steel trap: he reads of a trumpet in one verse, and a trumpet in other, and SLAM! His mind slams shut: they HAVE to be speaking of the same trumpet!

Without a doubt he has done this with the sun and moon: "after the trib of those days, " and at the 6th seal.

Look at the context surrounding the mention of those trumpets: the return of Christ, the rapture, the resurrection of the dead. Me thinks you're willifully ignorant at this point. Just ignoring these things doesn't make them go away. Your choice. ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯

 

[Runningman]

Ah! The light bulb goes off: So you are of the prewrath camp! You perhaps did not know that prewrath is the worst of all rapture theories - requiring a complete rewrite of Revelation?

It started because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not understand that the signs after the trib could not in any way be the same signs before the trip - the 6th seal. So the MORPHED Revelation to fit their theory.

Suppose we ask John where the days of GT are?
First, WHO CAUSES the days of GT? Simple, Satan and his wrath working through the Beast and False Prophet. Did you just overlook the fact that John does not see their rise to power until chapter 13?

Did you not notice that God warns people not to take the mark in chapter 14? This tells us the mark is not being enforced or not made yet by the time of God's warning.

Did you not see this?

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Notice that the beheaded from the days of GT BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15! And prewrath imagines GT in the seals! They could not be further from the truth! And all because two men thought the signs in the sun and moon BEFORE the trib, were the same signs AFTER the trib - when in truth they will be seen over 7 years apart!

Where does God's wrath BEGIN in Revelation? With the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. Then the 70th week or "trib" starts at the 7th seal. The "trib" is the 7th seal to the 7th vial. It is ALL WRATH because it is all in the DAY of His WRATH. So much for prewrath theory.

If you look at the OT on the Day of hte Lord, you will find it is a day of His wrath, where He comes to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. When we compare the trumpet judgments, we see that is exactly what God is doing. There can be NO DOUBT the trumpet judgments are the first salvo's of the Day of the Lord - which IS the day of His wrath. Then in the bowls we read that they are FILLED with His wrath. And God will pour out the bowls of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. So the days of GT and God's wrath are simultaneous! How in the world then can they be separated with TIME? Impossible. This proves your first statement as FALSE:
"The wrath of God doesn't come until after the great tribulation." You don't understand where the days of GT take place in Revelation.


Here you escape reality in different directions! The discourse does teach a GATHERING. Again, people have been trying unsuccessfully for many years to prove this gathering is Paul's rapture. The truth is, IT CAN'T BE. The timing is all wrong and it gathers from the wrong planet!

AGain you show your ignorance as to WHEN God's wrath begins. Read the 6th seal over and over: maybe you will get it. Study the first trumpet judgments and see that they are God destroying the world and the sinners in the world: the Day of the Lord from the OT.

I would argue the dispensational premillennial pre-trib rapture is the worst of all camps, but just saying I'm ignorant and the worst of all doesn't make it so.

If you want to actually win a debate against me, which you can't on this topic, then you'll need a way to prove the pre-trib rapture. I've been talking to you for weeks now in various threads. If you have an ace up your sleeve you should use it.

Notice post-tribbers have been dominating every discussion producing round, after round, after round, of proofs and evidences for a post-trib rapture because the Bible supplies a lot of material to build this doctrine because it's the truth.

 

[Runningman]

Pretty much yup. The guy couldn't exegete his way out of a paper bag.

Ah, the beautiful sound of personal insults. They're the last refuge of the insecure; the final tool of the loser when a debate is lost.

 

[cv5]

Ah, the beautiful sound of personal insults. They're the last refuge of the insecure; the final tool of the loser when a debate is lost.

You are mistaken. The last refuge is "ignore". I have been patient but it's time to bid you farewell.
You would do well to read every single solitary posts made by TDW. Educate yourself instead of preaching what you do not understand.

 

[lamad]

Look at the context surrounding the mention of those trumpets: the return of Christ, the rapture, the resurrection of the dead. Me thinks you're willifully ignorant at this point. Just ignoring these things doesn't make them go away. Your choice. ¯\_༼ •́ ͜ʖ •̀ ༽_/¯

Pretribbers have certainly looked at the context: It is hard to miss, "after the trib" of those days... Also a gathering from heaven, not from earth.

On the other hand, Paul's rapture comes just before wrath and John is clear that wrath begins at the 6th seal. Then the raptured church is seen in heaven in chapter 7. Are postribbers willfully ignorant? That is up to each one.

 

[lamad]

I would argue the dispensational premillennial pre-trib rapture is the worst of all camps, but just saying I'm ignorant and the worst of all doesn't make it so.

If you want to actually win a debate against me, which you can't on this topic, then you'll need a way to prove the pre-trib rapture. I've been talking to you for weeks now in various threads. If you have an ace up your sleeve you should use it.

Notice post-tribbers have been dominating every discussion producing round, after round, after round, of proofs and evidences for a post-trib rapture because the Bible supplies a lot of material to build this doctrine because it's the truth.

Did I miss something? You are NOT prewrath? It is only prewrath that says "post trib - prewrath." If you are not prewrath, I will repent.

 

[Runningman]

Pretribbers have certainly looked at the context: It is hard to miss, "after the trib" of those days... Also a gathering from heaven, not from earth.

On the other hand, Paul's rapture comes just before wrath and John is clear that wrath begins at the 6th seal. Then the raptured church is seen in heaven in chapter 7. Are postribbers willfully ignorant? That is up to each one.

The four winds is a figure of speech used to describe from everywhere. Look I can't teach you everything, but study the various scriptures and see for yourself.

Look at how Mark 13:24-27 words it:
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[lamad]

The four winds is a figure of speech used to describe from everywhere. Look I can't teach you everything, but study the various scriptures and see for yourself.

Look at how Mark 13:24-27 words it:
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Let's look: The four winds WHERE? "from one end of heaven to the other. " And you wish to claim this as Paul's rapture that gathers from earth.

Or you can go to Luke and read from both heaven and earth. It still does not fit: Paul's gathering gathers from EARTH. it seems VERY unlikely God would use these words for Paul's rapture. Anyway, Paul's rapture comes just before wrath: the 6th seal, and the raptured church seen in heave right after.

 

[FreeGrace2]

On the other hand, Paul's rapture comes just before wrath

Could you provide the verse or passage where that is obviously stated?

and John is clear that wrath begins at the 6th seal. Then the raptured church is seen in heaven in chapter 7.

Why shouldn't the vast majority (over 99%) of the church already be in heaven,? Since by the time the rapture gets around, whether pre or post trib, not very many will be left on earth to rapture. So of course the "church" will be seen in heaven. In fact, EVERY believer from Adam on is in heaven now.

Are postribbers willfully ignorant? That is up to each one.

Since post tribbers have actual verses that actually say what we believe (which is WHY we believe the rapture is post trib), why do you even bring up "ignorance"?

It seems better to apply that word to those who have NO clear verses about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

You don't have any, and you know it. Or we'd all have seen it or them by now.

You don't have an ace up your sleeve.

 

[cv5]

You had better do a study of trumpets my friend. The astute and diligent Bible student knows that there are many many trumpets and all kinds of different shouts and calls, all for various purposes and times.

Perhaps you should also consider that the book of Joshua & the battle of Jericho is a type and a microcosm and has parallels with the book of Revelation.......including the trumpets. Which has parallels with the fall feasts.

Joshua/Jesus taking Israel/the world by divinely decreed conquest.....

No chatter on this point? I thought everyone knew and understood this......

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

No chatter on this point? I thought everyone knew and understood this......

I've tried to lead a conversation to Jericho and Exodus on numerous occasions.
Left-behinders normally divert & dismiss. Or ignore me entirely.

 

[cv5]

I've tried to lead a conversation to Jericho and Exodus on numerous occasions.
Left-behinders normally divert & dismiss. Or ignore me entirely.

I'm not going to dismiss it. What I'm going to say is that this is a conquest of the LAND. In both instances. And they both pertain to Israel ONLY.

The Exodus likewise pertains to Israel and the land only. The Church is nowhere to be found.

The Church has absolutely nothing to do with EITHER conquest. It's not for them is not by them and it they are not even in proximity per Rev 5:9.

 

[cv5]

I'm not going to dismiss it. What I'm going to say is that this is a conquest of the LAND. In both instances. And they both pertain to Israel ONLY.

The Exodus likewise pertains to Israel and the land only. The Church is nowhere to be found.

The Church has absolutely nothing to do with EITHER conquest. It's not for them is not by them and it they are not even in proximity per Rev 5:9.

Oops I failed to mention the incident of Rahab being saved out of Jerico. A very interesting study unto itself. More on that later.......

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lucy-Pevensie said:
I've tried to lead a conversation to Jericho and Exodus on numerous occasions.
Left-behinders normally divert & dismiss. Or ignore me entirely.

I'm not going to dismiss it. What I'm going to say is that this is a conquest of the LAND. In both instances. And they both pertain to Israel ONLY.

The Exodus likewise pertains to Israel and the land only. The Church is nowhere to be found.
The Church has absolutely nothing to do with EITHER conquest. It's not for them is not by them and it they are not even in proximity per Rev 5:9.

AGREED!


That's why I've repeatedly pointed out:

--the LAST trump / trumpet (Paul's epistles)

--the SEVEN [judgment] Trumpets (Rev)

--the GREAT Trumpet (Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13)


all being distinct.