Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.
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The book of Matthew mentions church twice as I recall, once about Jesus building the church 'upon this rock' and once in chapter 18 about sin. It not being mentioned here is no glaring omission. The church is mentioned in II Thessalonians 1 where we read that Jesus will be revealed from heaven when he comes to execute vengeance on them that believe not and the be glorified in the saints.
I already pointed out the fact you cannot show scripture that shows a pretrib rapture. You and others that came before you developed interpretations you can 'fit' to different passages. You have no scripture that shows a rapture taking place pretrib. You have some you allegorically interpret to mean pretrib...fit again. There is no reference to a rapture before the tribulation in Matthew 24 and parallel passages. Instead, there is the sign of the Son of Man coming ___after___ the tribulation and the gathering of the elect there. Pretribbers have the coming of the Lord and the 'gathering ' in II Thessalonians 2 refer to different events. Why should anyone believe such a convoluted approach to scripture?
It reminds me of people not believing spiritual gifts, not because of anything specific in the Bible, but because it is not time for those gifts according to their thoughts and theories. Then they try to gather evidence to 'fit' their theory. So someone being sick late in the NT is supposed to be evidence of healing ceasing. There is no evidence for healing ceasing really. There is counter evidence since Paul healed late in Acts and had an infirmity early in his apostolic ministry.
And there are scriptures that do not fit pretrib. Making the coming of our Lord in Matthew 24 posttrib out to be different from the dead being made alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15 is an example.
It reminds me of people not believing spiritual gifts, not because of anything specific in the Bible, but because it is not time for those gifts according to their thoughts and theories. Then they try to gather evidence to 'fit' their theory. So someone being sick late in the NT is supposed to be evidence of healing ceasing. There is no evidence for healing ceasing really. There is counter evidence since Paul healed late in Acts and had an infirmity early in his apostolic ministry.
And there are scriptures that do not fit pretrib. Making the coming of our Lord in Matthew 24 posttrib out to be different from the dead being made alive at His coming in I Corinthians 15 is an example.
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No thanks. I'll just stick with what the Bible says about "the elect" being the church:
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Colossians 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
2 Timothy 2:10
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Colossians 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
2 Timothy 2:10
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
The TRIB in Revelation - the 70th week: starts with the 7th seal - 8:1 - ends with the 7th trumpet
In comparison the great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven before the 70th week begins.
PRE-trib plain and simple.
Don't say they are martyrs of the church age or of the 70th week. There is not one word that hints they are martyrs from the church or from the week.
Paul teaches HIS gathering / rapture comes just before wrath and the Day of the Lord (1 thes 5). Where does wrath start in Revelation? How amazing! Just before John saw the raptured church in heaven.
And you said pretrib has no scripture! You are mistaken. The truth is, you just have not found it - probably due to strong preconceptions: they BLOCK the truth of scripture on both sides of this argument.
In comparison the great crowd too large to number is seen in heaven before the 70th week begins.
PRE-trib plain and simple.
Don't say they are martyrs of the church age or of the 70th week. There is not one word that hints they are martyrs from the church or from the week.
Paul teaches HIS gathering / rapture comes just before wrath and the Day of the Lord (1 thes 5). Where does wrath start in Revelation? How amazing! Just before John saw the raptured church in heaven.
And you said pretrib has no scripture! You are mistaken. The truth is, you just have not found it - probably due to strong preconceptions: they BLOCK the truth of scripture on both sides of this argument.
You missed a good one:
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
The 70th week is for ISRAEL, not the church. AT the pretrib rapture you deny, the church age ends and the Day of the Lord and the 70th week - for DANIEL'S people begin. So the "elect" mentioned is for the OT saints.
Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
The 70th week is for ISRAEL, not the church. AT the pretrib rapture you deny, the church age ends and the Day of the Lord and the 70th week - for DANIEL'S people begin. So the "elect" mentioned is for the OT saints.
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Did you catch this one?
Colossians 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Colossians 3:11-12
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
I see you haven't read the full book of 1 Thessalonians or you would have caught this verse about the Thessalonian church waiting for Jesus to come from heaven... Meaning the church will be here when Jesus returns after the great tribulation:
1 Thessalonians 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
That was a nice sidestep instead of answering the question. Perhaps you need help... We are looking for something "taken out of the way:"
"3 Let no man deceive you [us being deceived or not cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
by any means: [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
for except [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
there come [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
an apostasia first, [ Have you studied this compound word in depth?]
The "taken out of the way has to fit somewhere in the above so that the below can happen.
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; "
Let's examine each side of the compound word apo stasia
The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."
Here is what Strong's says about "apo:
Quote:
of separation, ...of local separation,
after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...
of separation of a part from the whole
...where of a whole some part is taken
of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
of a state of separation, that is of distance
physical, of distance of place
End of quote
Notice that we are looking for anything that can fit being "taken out of the way" One of Strong's definitions even has the word "taken!" At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.
Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.
The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.
Putting these two words together then "apostasia" can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly taken from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I only changed apostasia to departing, the word several translations into English before the KJV used.
What is Paul saying? Don't be deceived: the Day of the Lord (that dark day of destruction) cannot come until the significant departing takes place first and that man of sin be revealed.
Paul's theme for this passage is His Coming and the gathering (departing) of the saints.
The truth then: Paul's second letter is just as pretrib as His first letter.
By the way, do you who or what the restrainer is?
"3 Let no man deceive you [us being deceived or not cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
by any means: [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
for except [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
there come [ these words cannot relate to "taken out of the way."]
an apostasia first, [ Have you studied this compound word in depth?]
The "taken out of the way has to fit somewhere in the above so that the below can happen.
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; "
Let's examine each side of the compound word apo stasia
The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."
Here is what Strong's says about "apo:
Quote:
of separation, ...of local separation,
after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...
of separation of a part from the whole
...where of a whole some part is taken
of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
of a state of separation, that is of distance
physical, of distance of place
End of quote
Notice that we are looking for anything that can fit being "taken out of the way" One of Strong's definitions even has the word "taken!" At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.
Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.
The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.
Putting these two words together then "apostasia" can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly taken from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I only changed apostasia to departing, the word several translations into English before the KJV used.
What is Paul saying? Don't be deceived: the Day of the Lord (that dark day of destruction) cannot come until the significant departing takes place first and that man of sin be revealed.
Paul's theme for this passage is His Coming and the gathering (departing) of the saints.
The truth then: Paul's second letter is just as pretrib as His first letter.
By the way, do you who or what the restrainer is?
That is speaking of the realm of the Spirit after one is born again. A physical bald Gentile is still a bald Gentile after being born again. What has changes is in the spriit realm: He or she has a NEW SPIRIT.
It is the new spirit man that is neither Greek nor Jew: it will have GOD'S DNA!
It is the new spirit man that is neither Greek nor Jew: it will have GOD'S DNA!
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Right. Ethnicity doesn't matter, social status doesn't matter, gender doesn't matter. What matters is that we are all one in Christ Jesus. You argument that Jews are in a class of their own in the Body of Christ is not found in the New Testament after the crucifixion.
Galatians 3:26-29
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:26-29
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Let's get a little context:
9 ...how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
WHO is to wait for the SON from heaven? It is those who turned to God from idols that received Paul's letters. THEY are to wait for His coming - 1 thes 4 coming - as this coming will be their rescue from wrath.
That is why in 1 Thes 5, Paul shows us WE escape from wrath, but THEY get it: Sudden Destruction and then everything that follows.
(you added that part: "after the GT." Paul did not write that. It seems you believe in only one more coming. I doubt you will change your mind until it happens.
9 ...how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
WHO is to wait for the SON from heaven? It is those who turned to God from idols that received Paul's letters. THEY are to wait for His coming - 1 thes 4 coming - as this coming will be their rescue from wrath.
That is why in 1 Thes 5, Paul shows us WE escape from wrath, but THEY get it: Sudden Destruction and then everything that follows.
(you added that part: "after the GT." Paul did not write that. It seems you believe in only one more coming. I doubt you will change your mind until it happens.
I added it because it's scriptural. Paul talks about it here:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Paul taught that when Jesus returns He'll gather the church and destroy the anti-Christ. The church will be present to witness the anti-Christ:
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Paul taught that when Jesus returns He'll gather the church and destroy the anti-Christ. The church will be present to witness the anti-Christ:
2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Hi, friend, I agree that all can't be right, for sure! Therefore, process of elimination is one way to weed out that which isn't.
We must remember that when it comes to Bible chronology, we have to take into consideration Hebrew Chiasm. Your statement that "Jesus doesn't return until chapter 19 is incorrect. He is seen returning at the end of chapter 6 when the people cry out to "hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb..."
Verse 6-8 simply expounds on verse 3b. In verse 3b, Paul states for the record that the Second Coming/Gathering of the saints to Him in the clouds doesn't happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed. Then, he reminds the Thessalonians in 6-8 that he already told them this, and had already revealed to them the identity of the Restrainer.
Paul never once failed to declare the might and power of God, no matter the audience: pagan kings, corrupt Jewish leaders, Gentiles, fellow Jews - no one was safe from hearing of "the hope of glory, Whom we preach", "the power of God unto salvation", "the "offense of the Cross"......
......yet, all of a sudden, when writing to the the Christian church in Thessalonica - his own beloved brethren - Paul is stricken with cold feet...with a severe case of the heebie-jeebies...with a cat-caught tongue, right? To a church that is hated, severely persecuted, and "killed all the day long", Paul clams up and casts aside a golden opportunity to encourage and strengthen the brethren with the words: "Lift up your heads, ye saints, for though is seems our Gospel light is about to go out in eternal darkness forever, know that the ALMIGHTY has at this very moment His celestial Boot of Restraint on the neck of the Man of Sin, and is keeping him in check until such time as HE HIMSELF decides to release him upon the world."
That is what you believe, right? That some "agent of holiness" is keeping the Antichrist from arising until some time in the future?
If that were the case, would not Paul be shouting that from the rooftops to every one of the seven churches instead of being all hush hush and secretive about the identity of the Restrainer, a thing so out of character for Paul that one wonders if it is truly him writing to the Thessalonians?
I assure you, there is another explanation the Bible has to offer.
We must remember that when it comes to Bible chronology, we have to take into consideration Hebrew Chiasm. Your statement that "Jesus doesn't return until chapter 19 is incorrect. He is seen returning at the end of chapter 6 when the people cry out to "hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb..."
Verse 6-8 simply expounds on verse 3b. In verse 3b, Paul states for the record that the Second Coming/Gathering of the saints to Him in the clouds doesn't happen until after the Man of Sin is revealed. Then, he reminds the Thessalonians in 6-8 that he already told them this, and had already revealed to them the identity of the Restrainer.
Paul never once failed to declare the might and power of God, no matter the audience: pagan kings, corrupt Jewish leaders, Gentiles, fellow Jews - no one was safe from hearing of "the hope of glory, Whom we preach", "the power of God unto salvation", "the "offense of the Cross"......
......yet, all of a sudden, when writing to the the Christian church in Thessalonica - his own beloved brethren - Paul is stricken with cold feet...with a severe case of the heebie-jeebies...with a cat-caught tongue, right? To a church that is hated, severely persecuted, and "killed all the day long", Paul clams up and casts aside a golden opportunity to encourage and strengthen the brethren with the words: "Lift up your heads, ye saints, for though is seems our Gospel light is about to go out in eternal darkness forever, know that the ALMIGHTY has at this very moment His celestial Boot of Restraint on the neck of the Man of Sin, and is keeping him in check until such time as HE HIMSELF decides to release him upon the world."
That is what you believe, right? That some "agent of holiness" is keeping the Antichrist from arising until some time in the future?
If that were the case, would not Paul be shouting that from the rooftops to every one of the seven churches instead of being all hush hush and secretive about the identity of the Restrainer, a thing so out of character for Paul that one wonders if it is truly him writing to the Thessalonians?
I assure you, there is another explanation the Bible has to offer.
The day of Christ mentioned in the first chapter, when Jesus comes, gives the church rest, executes vengence on them that believe not, when he comes to be glorified in the saints cannot happen until there first be a departing/apostacy, and the man of sin be revealed.
The church is here when the day of Christ happens. Do you have any evidence that Jesus comes back before Jesus comes back?
John N. Darby And Adulterer C.I. Scofield Lesson #6
Matthew Chapter 24 Poses a problem to our teaching of a pre-trib rapture
We will now claim that the word (Elect) applies to ethnic Jews and not the Church on earth
Matthew Chapter 24 Poses a problem to our teaching of a pre-trib rapture
We will now claim that the word (Elect) applies to ethnic Jews and not the Church on earth
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