Not By Works

I believe OSAS provides false security because it allows people to think they may obtain by dead faith that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life. The reason why is because Jesus said over and over, "To him that overcometh..." but OSAS teaches, "Overcoming? Meh...not important."

Actually, we're both right Because Jesus said the problem in the last days would also be License. Proof? "And because INIQUITY shall abound, the love of many will wax cold." - Matthew 24:12 KJV

"Iniquity" is people committing deliberate, known, habitual sin, not people striving to turn from it because they love Jesus. Lots of people are committing iniquity and trying to make up for it with good deeds, as well as those who are trying to earn salvation.

I am not preaching against iniquity

i am preaching against a works based salvation.

a child of God can’t do this

one day you will realise this. And repent yourself,

Hello eternally-gratefull,
please explain how a child of God cannot do this. What does this mean to you?

Look, the fact that Jesus pointed out Judgment Day is going to be a rude awakening for many Legalists does not mean the main problem in the end times is Legalism -- because there will be many Legalists standing in Judgment going all the way back to Cain.

What Jesus did say would be a huge problem in the last days in Matthew 24:12:13 KJV is "Iniquity" aka "License" which will cause the "love (Greek: 'agape') of many" believers to wax cold and dead due to deliberate, known, habitual sin.

That's what we need to be warning the church against. If you wanna preach against Legalism, you got the wrong target audience - Protestants already know better. It's our Catholic friends who need your message.

It means what John said

in John words

whoever habitually or lives in sin has never seen or known God

whoever is born of God can not habitually or live in sin, because they have been born of God...

the chastening of the HS, who can withstand it? I know I could not, many times God will bring his children home also in cases, we call this the sin unto death. But they are still children

Look

your a legalist!

own up to what you are. You will get a lot more respect?

What everyone here believes is that man has the ability of choice throughout his life to choose Christ or not. We've all heard stories of those who God dealt with for years & got saved the last year of their life an old man. It happens, right?

Yet when someone gets truly saved at 9 years old they can live all their years & never have the ability to choose & say "I change my mind"?

I've seen folks who have been saved for years with a real christian life have something catastrophic happen in their family, lose a special loved one, & in their suffering get bitter & walk away... go back to their old ways worse than they ever were before in sin, only to have someone to declare they were still saved no matter what, or that they were never saved in the first place.

REALLY??? We all know that absolutely makes no sense either way. Wicked people can't bring forth good fruit, plus God is no respecter of persons (don't play favorites).

I believed in Jesus at a very young age. I prayed a salvation prayer very young too , though I don’t know what I prayed, somehow I still remember having prayed. At some point I struggled with assurance of salvation and constantly asked Jesus to save me. I dealt with fear and doubt. I once felt like I had denied Jesus in high school. I sometimes have my moments still. I don’t ever remember totally stopping believing in Jesus through it all. I still had faith in my high school years just hoping Jesus would not turn me away.

I believe some may walk away for a time or permanently or it may seem permanent to another’s eyes when perhaps what appears to be loss of faith is not. God knows the heart of every individual and he knows his children and does not forsake them.

All I know is what John Said, speaking of antichrists, his interpretation of what an antichrist is is one who denies Christ,

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

and what did he say about these people who used to be part of the church but are now anti-Christ (deniers of Christ)

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

it is God who declair they were never part of the church not the people, we also have to be careful some are so distraught they deny Christ openly but in their hearts they still believe, they say out of anger or sadness. We should not judge them let God do that as only he knows. (I have personally met people like this. And I will not judge them, only God knows If they are saved, and no, they did not “live in sin” that’s another reason I can’t judge)

but what we can judge is no one lost salvation, just because they said a prayer when they were 9 and when they are 30 they deny Christ by word and action (habitual sin). As John. Said, they were never of us,

Many people who walk away from Christ don't deny who He is or proclaim He's not Savior of the world. They deny the faith, they rebel from their committment & live ungodly.

2Peter 2:2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell[a] and committed them to chains[b] of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;[c] 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,[d] and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge[e] in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones,11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,[f] while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery,[g] insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves[h] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

1. V2 says they deny their Master that bought them. Since Jesus was their Master they were at one time His servants.
2. V15 says they forsook the right way. Sinners can't forsake what they never committed to. These were once saints.
3. V20 said they escaped theworld through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Only saved people can do that.
4. V20 said they they are entangled again in sin. Only saints can do that.
5. V21 said it would have been better off fo them to never had known the way of righteousness than after knowing turn back fom it - indicating their judgment would be worse now after being saved to turn back than the sinner who never got saved.
6. Peter then quotes Proverbs 26: 11 about being like a dog returning to his own vomit.
7. The sow returning to its mire was apparently a rabbinical teaching at the time.

ALL of the context agrees with itself. God said if He didn't spare the angels who went after sin He won't spare christians who go back into sin either.

so they have faith in Jesus. But not in his way? Is this what your saying?

a few things

1. a dog returns to his vomit because he is still a dog, a dog who is born again is no longer a dog, they are a new creature in Christ, he will never return to his vomit because he is no longer a dog,. A Dog also enjoys their vomit! as a new creature, they would no longer enjoy it, I no longer enjoy sin, and I am chastened even when I do it, so I have a double whammy,

2. Jesus paid the debt for all men, Jesus is our master whether we believe in him or not, so when we deny him we deny our master who bought us, whoever does not believe is condemned already....etc etc...

3. Forsook? It says they forsook the right way, it does not say when they forsook it or that they ever believed it, they have gone the way of Balaam, have you read the account of the people who did what balaam said, you think they were saved?

4. Entangled in sin, see a dog who returns to vomit, a dog (sinner) will always return to who they really are,

5. it will be better off, who is better off, an Athiest who denied God from the beginning or a person who had the gospel in their grasp and before they received it walked away.. remember they have to live with that for eternity

6 sow returning to more, same thing, was never made a new creature and goes back to who he was.

that is John’s point, a person who is never of the church will walk away, and return to what they really have faith in. Proving they were never really of us.

how long is eternal life my friend?

I am not here to argue a point thinking I would change the regulars' minds. If someone here has been in this thread for years with their beliefs, I have no hope of changing their minds. I only hope someone reading would receive the truth.
I will now leave.

1 Corinthians 12:1

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:

1 Corinthians 12:10-11
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

It's listed as a gift.

One has to ask the question from verse 10.
If one has the gift of tongues then the one has the gift of interpreting the tongues.

So the interpreter must have that gift. That being the case then they are believers.

On the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke in tongues.
There were people from every nation under the earth and those present understood what they were saying.

They did not have the gift of interpretation (they were not belivers at times I that point)

If you invalidate one gift based on the premises you present then you have to invalidate all of them.

For some reason I cannot copy and paste from the NKJV Bible study notes.
If you have it then it is worth a read.

Magenta, because I respect you, I will give you a short answer here. I usually AVOID DEBATING THIS SUBJECT, by ignoring their Posts, and some because they INSIST of Debating it, I had to Put them on my permanent IGNORE LIST. Why . . . it has been my EXPERIENCE that with Pentecostals, and Charismatics, IT WILL LEAD TO AN ABSOLUTELY HEATED, NAME CALLING, AGRUMENT, EVERY TIME. HOW DARE I TOUCH THEIR PERSONAL FAVORITE THING TO DO IN CHURCH, even though it is VERY UNBIBLICAL.

You see, I used to believe in Tongues, and was ONCE CAUGHT UP in Kenneth Copeland so-called Ministries. My Wife came to the CONCLUSION THAT EVERYTHING SHE LEARNED AS A CHILD IN A PENTICOSTAL CHURCH, was a COUNTERFEIT OF THE REAL McCOY. My Sister Inlaws once HAD A SHOUTING MATCH diriected at me, at the dining room table, that that left me embarrassed for them. They were CONVINCED that I led the Sister ASTRAY, even though she told them she came to the conclusion first that modern day Tongues, was a counterfeit. So they asked me, about 1985, to do a Bible study to Prove what I believed. I secretly believed in Tongues at that time, and wanted to prove it was real, and told them YES I would do it, but they had to give me time to study it out FIRST, then I would write a personal Letter to them of what I believed. To my SURPRISE, I quickly Learned it REALLY was a Counterfeit, but I continued the Study from a NON-CHARISMATIC Point of View. I mean I Studied everything I could get my hands on from that point of view. I even wanted to study the Pentecostal and Charismatic side of the ISSUE, but met with STRONG RESISTENCE, like they were saying, "How dare I question the Holy Spirit?" I found so much material from the Non-Charismatic side, including, taped sermons, articles, books, personal interviews, etc., etc. Wading thru all of that, and yes I am slow reader, but I was determined to do it right. That Study took me 6 months to Read or Listen to it all, and Several trips to the Public Library for research (before computers), before I ever put the Pen to the Paper. Over the Years I have UPDATED that REPORT, and Put is on at least two different sites on line, maybe Three. I could have written an 400 page Book, but the Holy Spirit spoke to my Heart, that 9 pages was enough, and if they did not listen to the Proof I provided in 9 Pages, More would be in vain.

Yes, it is Here on this site, but I had to put it on it in 9 different SEGMENTS. It is called: A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES.

You are welcome to Read it, but know that I no longer check that site for new posts.
Here is the link: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/a-non-charismatic-understanding-of-tongues.184020/

On your Question about the GENUINE TONGUES, I am absolutely Positive, that it is NEVER called a GIFT in the BIBLE. Miracles or Signs were never orchestrated by MEN, without the LORDS HELP PERSONALLY DOING IT.

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and
confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

The Purpose for TONGUES was to confirm to JEWS that THE N.T. was coequally the Word of GOD. When it has been done in front of enough Jews to Confirm it, the GENUINE TONGUES CEASED, just like JESUS DOES NOT confirm HIS resurrection, by appearing to each and every new believe. Do I believe in Faith Healers of today ? ? ? NO! HE HEALS IN ANSWER TO PRAYER.

I love you my brother just gonna post the following verses and if you are happy to leave it at that then so am I.

Don't want fall out with you over this thorny subject. Not worth it. We agree on most things.

Acts 2:8-12
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

It wasn't just to confirm to the Jews as above.

BILL, I respect you, so I realize that your opinion is slanted towards the opposite side of this Issue. I have heard all the opposing arguments probably close to a 100 times before, and still do not buy it.

I am 100% convinced that the Modern Day Tongues is a Counterfeit of the REAL THING. I do not think less of You because you disagree with the Non-Charismatic point of view. However, I think the following VERSE says it all, and applies to everything that GOD DOES, including TONGUES.

Malachi 3:6 (HCSB)
6 “Because I, Yahweh, have not changed,
you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed.


The same way HE DID TONGUES in the beginning, is the same way HE would do TONGUES TODAY, if it was REAL. There would be an UNBELIEVING JEW present in Each Church where TONGUES was manifested, and that UNBELIEVING JEW would HEAR in his own Dialectos, which is Language so ACCURATE, that even the ACCENT would have been CORRECT to the Letter. And NONE OF Modern Day Tongues is done that WAY.


1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
22 For the Jews require a sign,
and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


Feel free to read what I wrote in the Thread A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES, if you are the type of person that can read a Study from the opposite side of the fence, WITHOUT GETTING MAD. If you are the type that gets Mad easily, it would be better that you do not read it.

The reason I consider it No Big Deal, is I think the TONGUES ISSUE, is the LEAST important thing in a Christian's life. But some people LOVE to consider that as A MAJOR, when it is only a minor issue.

Acts 2:5 (KJV)
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

I will give it a read. It won't get me mad because personally I don't see it as a salvic issue.

I only get mad with doctrine that lays a burden upon people that detracts from salvation through faith and then adds something to it.

Salvation is via faith and then the Holy Spirit adds to it.

Jesus said to make disciples. And this is our calling to those God has given us.

You seem to think I'm a charismatic, probably am because I believe all the gifts are prevelant today.

But I have to ask you, if you believe all the gifts of the spirit less tongues are still prevelant then are you not a charismatic?

I find it difficult to understand if all gifts ceased in the NT at some point why?

The word of God today does not cut it today.
For me it's a continual support thing until the day Jesus calls time.