Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

It may well be that the type of treading the grapes is ALWAYS a reference to judgment.

Isa 63:1-6
Who is this that is come from Edom, with red garments from Bosor? thus fair in his apparel, with mighty strength? I speak of righteousness and saving judgment.
Wherefore are thy garments red, and thy raiment as if fresh from a trodden winepress?
I am full of trodden grape, and of the nations there is not a man with me; and I trampled them in my fury, and dashed them to pieces as earth, and brought down their blood to the earth.
For the day of recompence has come upon them, and the year of redemption is at hand.
And I looked, and there was no helper; and I observed, and none upheld: therefore my arm delivered them, and mine anger drew nigh.
And I trampled them in mine anger, and brought down their blood to the earth.

Yes they are in heaven in rev 14. That means they are gathered as firstfruit Jews and are indeed declared firstfruits...correctly so.

So we do agree.

But AFTER that firstfruit gathering is main harvest.
That is a few sentences later.
A gathering of Jews by Jesus sitting on a cloud.

Thanks for that.......very helpful.
You know I'm trying to determine with some kind of certainty when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. There's not a lot to go on. But Daniel chapter 12 seems to be the richest vein of Scriptural proof.

It's been a good day so far. I appreciate everyone's efforts thank you.

We were led off track 2,000 years ago by Constantine who turned relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit who was sent to guide us in all truth, Christianity became "religion" based on the Roman model of government where the top person is venerated and people are to jump through hoops of rituals and practices to make themselves right with God, when we know that Jesus paid it all on the cross.

I wouldn't put Charles Parham in the same league as some of the others.

Gary I believe you deny that the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation 11, are Literal prophets returned, that will wear literal sackcloth, that will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, that will have literal bodies that die, and lay in a literal street in Jerusalem?

Yes there is very strong reason to believe that that the "first resurrection" so-called consists of A MINIMUM of 3 groups.......

Historical view is intellectually dishonest.
Observe the absurditys by that camp "explaining" the flying scorpions, the hailstones of fire, and the mark of the beast.

Almost comical

There is very strong reason to believe that - if you simply "take the Bible at its Word" - you will understand that the "first resurrection" is just exactly that - no more and no less...

Don't try to "invent" anything - just accept what it actually says. Don't add. Don't take away. Just believe.

Just to let you know I don't agree with absolutely everything in the link that I provided.
For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows.

BTW...Matthew states very clearly that their bodies were resurrected right after the crucifixion death event, at the same time of the splitting of the temple veil. But these showed themselves to many in Jerusalem only after the resurrection of Christ.....very curious.

Great great great great tribulation.
Lol

"[re: resurrection] But EACH [Hekastos G1538 (a word meaning, "of MORE THAN TWO")] in his own ORDER [tagmati G5001 (a word meaning, "rank, division, an ordered series")]" 1 Corinthians 15:23.

What does "EACH in his own RANK / an ordered SERIES" mean, in this context? (that only ONE is yet remaining?? ["one RANK"??])


[links]
-- Strong's Greek: 1538. ἕκαστος (hekastos) -- each, every (biblehub.com)
-- Strong's Greek: 5001. τάγμα (tagma) -- that which has been arranged in order, spec. a division, rank (biblehub.com)


And why are the "2W" resurrected at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology, at a time-slot distinct from all others??




"Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST" (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE"), Rev20:6, is not saying "at this point in the chronology is the FIRST TIME anyone's been 'resurrected'," ... because the "2W" will have ALREADY been resurrected BEFORE this point in the chronology. (yet, THEY TOO are "having A PART IN the resurrection, the FIRST" b/c they ascend up into Heaven, a thing not experienced by the "unsaved/lost" )

Do you really think tribulation is that great?

(haha)

Never really cared for it myself...



Or, are you referring to:

tribulation...
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
- that begat tribulation
. . .

The tribulation definitely accelerates in severity and frequency. I can't believe that any Christian would choose to believe that they need to go through it when they are promised that they won't.

Such is the state of the Sardis/Laodicean Church of today I suppose. Totally clueless. I can't tell you how many rank-and-file pastors I've dealt with recently that have no idea.....absolutely no concept of end time eschatology. In fact according to them life and Christianity is all about here and now. And is getting worse the present day Church generally speaking refuses to deal with end time eschatology at all. No warnings to be vigilant at all times to watch as Jesus says. No exhortation to be at all times prepared for His soon coming.

Nope.....None of that scary stuff. It's just a big party nowadays. A party at Jesus' expense.

Incredible really. Incredibly tragic. Incredibly fearful that so many will not be ready when Jesus comes at a time they do not expect. And the door is shut on the five foolish virgins.

Just to let you know I don't agree with absolutely everything in the link that I provided.
For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows.

BTW...Matthew states very clearly that their bodies were resurrected right after the crucifixion death event, at the same time of the splitting of the temple veil. But these showed themselves to many in Jerusalem only after the resurrection of Christ.....very curious.

Jesus said "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

I do that regularly

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They were raised AFTER the resurrection of Jesus.

Quote ; "For example the graves that were opened immediately after the Crucifixion could be OT saints Christians or combination of both nobody really knows."

Jesus descended and preached to those in prison.
That is the gospel given to the ot saints.

My friend I have seen nothing whatsoever to convince me in the least.......that there is an alternative to a pre-trib rapture. The case is so overwhelming that it is quite frankly breathtaking in terms of boilerplate doctrine.

Tragically nobody understands the patterns. The Old Testament patterns vs the book of Revelation. The fact that chapter 6 and beyond is the fulfillment of the OT Day of the Lord.

The fact that there is not one scrap or scintilla of textual evidence that the Church is anywhere beyond chapter 5.

The fact that the Church is nowhere alluded to in Matthew 24 Mark 13 or Luke 21.
For the simple reason that the Day of the Lord does not affect the Church in the least.

The complete breakdown of the understanding of the difference between the Day of Jesus Christ (a mystery revealed and FULLY EXPLAINED by Paul in Ephesians ch 3) and the Day of the Lord.

The unequivocal reality that the Day of Jesus Christ (the Day of Grace) has a distinct beginning (Pentecost) and a distinct ending (the Rapture).

The woeful misunderstanding of how the Jewish wedding ceremony parallels the Church to perfection. A parallelism that Jesus Himself testifies to again and again and again and Paul amplifies and explains.

I can say more so much more but this is impossible on a mere message board.

In my opinion the doctrine of the Rapture is one of the most substantially supportable in all of the Bible. I hear the same old worn out arguments to the contrary.....all of which are rooted in ignorance deception and denial.

Is far as I'm concerned the doctrine of the pre-trib Rapture is a wrap. Done and done with no wiggle room. No alternative. No contender. In fact his time goes on I become even more resolute because the alternative arguments that I hear are so pathetic.

And my assessment has absolutely nothing to do with Darby or anybody else.

I will explain this:
Daniel ch 9......the 70th week.....pertains only to Israel. A fact which the book of Revelation makes clear.