Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

I have shown what scripture says. You make assertions as to what I Corinthians 13 means, divorced from the context of the rest of the epistle.

I believe and teach that genuine tongues are the same thing described in Acts 2 and I Corinthians.

I accept what all the other scriptures say about speaking in tongues also.

Sure there is; "the perfect" is not identified in the verse. The reader cannot possibly understand the verse "literally" without having a preconceived idea of (or investigating after) what "the perfect" references. It is unreasonable to inject your interpretation of the word into a principle for interpreting the verse as a whole.

You are making a false assertion. The context clearly indicates that the perfect is the bible.

Then please describe them as the apostles would have spoken them. I will help direct you to the truth. Tongues are languages and at least 15 different languages were present at Pentecost.

Only as far as it supports the false premise that tongues are active today in the church. Any church that teaches tongues are for today is a church that has left it's mission and is in rebellion against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The following verse clearly identify the perfect.

1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Clearly the OT is part and the NT completes the word of God. Now with the completion of the NT we see as God allows us to see.

The main difference between tongues and healing is that the former can be unverifiable by claiming its a heavenly language, even though nothing in Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14:21 indicate it to be anything else other than known foreign languages.

I'm not disagreeing with your point here, but I would like to clarify: with regard to "tongues", do you mean "known" as in the speaker knows the foreign language beforehand, or as in the language is recognized by the hearers as a particular foreign language?

Actual foreign languages, the speaker is not taught that language before but somehow is able to communicate that language to those who are native to it, at the moment of the gift being imparted.

Thanks; for the most part, we agree on this.

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Any comments and different perspectives?

I agree with some of this, but some important differences in opinion:

1. Agree.
2. Agree.
3. Agree.
4. Agree.

5. What? where does the 1yr extension come from? Israel rejected Christ and crucified him - this was prophesied and necessary. But Jesus prayed: 'forgive them' (Israel), and so the WHOLE Acts period is the second chance for ISRAEL to accept Jesus as THEIR promised messiah.
Initially in Jerusalem under the leadership of James/Peter, and later to the diaspora under Paul - but even then each new city he travelled to he went first to the synagogue to share the word - and only when the Jews rejected it he turned to the Gentiles "to provoke Israel to jealosy". This continued throughout Acts.
Even as late as Acts 28:20 Pauls states "..it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain". And earlier in the same chapter miracles are still in play as he healed the whole isle of Malta. It is only at the very end of Acts, in Acts 28:25-28 that we get the final dismissal of the Jews: "..THEREFORE let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles".

6. Agree.

7. Because of that rejection of Israel, a new 'dispensation' was ushered in AFTER Acts, which is reflected only in the post-Acts epistles (Eph, Col, Phi, 1&2 Tim, Tit, Phm) - here we see terms such as "hid in God", "unsearchable", "BEFORE the foundation of the world". The hope now becomes "in the HEAVENLIES". This is all NEW stuff, none of this is in the OT. Where as before this, the focus is all on Israel (to be the priests to the world in the millenium), EARTHLY hope, the kingdom, the 'signs and wonders' which are all prophesied in the OT. Even in late Acts Paul says he has claimed nothing but what is in the OT.

8. Paul and ALL (?) the other believers were given signs and wonders as a TASTE of that which was to come (ie. in the millennial kingdom).
See Acts 2.16-21 - Peter explains to the crowd at Pentecost what they are witnessing: "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will...' "
See Heb 6:5 - Paul is warning the Jews regarding their falling away: "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers OF THE AGE TO COME,..".
Here in these two passages we see WHY there were gifts during the Acts period. It was FOR the Jews as proof of the disciples' credentials, and it was a TASTE of the gifts that would come to ALL ISRAEL in the millennial kingdom.

9. Agree.
10. Agree.

Your version of "clear" falls somewhere between "murky" and "opaque".

There is nothing whatsoever in that passage that even hints that "the perfect" refers to the canon of Scripture, let alone identifying the old and new testaments. Your assertion is unadulterated eisegesis.

Do you think its possible that the verse applied to the 12 apostles of Christ only and not us, similar to how you will interpret Matthew 19:28?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

You are making a false assertion. The context clearly indicates that the perfect is the bible.

Then please describe them as the apostles would have spoken them. I will help direct you to the truth. Tongues are languages and at least 15 different languages were present at Pentecost.

Only as far as it supports the false premise that tongues are active today in the church. Any church that teaches tongues are for today is a church that has left it's mission and is in rebellion against God.

For point 8, the Jerusalem Council was a very critical event that will determine whether Paul's new gospel, the one he received from Christ Jesus thru direct revelation, will be accepted by James, Peter, and John, who were the 3 pillars.

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

'Paul's new gospel'? What a terrible perspective hyper-dispensationalism is. Paul wrote that if any man preached another Gospel let him be accursed. Read John's gospel. It has a strong emphasis on salvation by faith.

The Lord in John 14:12 states: "He that believeth on me", shall do the works that He shall do, and even greater works. Why would you want to twist the Lord's Word to say something other than what He clearly says? There are other scriptures as well, which show the faithful in Christ at the conclusion of the tribulation under the beast's reign having power as that of Christ. Check out Micah 5 & 7 to see what happens after the travailing woman, who is the same travailing woman in Revelation 12, brings forth.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

Your version of "clear" falls somewhere between "murky" and "opaque".

There is nothing whatsoever in that passage that even hints that "the perfect" refers to the canon of Scripture, let alone identifying the old and new testaments. Your assertion is unadulterated eisegesis.

'Paul's new gospel'? What a terrible perspective hyper-dispensationalism is. Paul wrote that if any man preached another Gospel let him be accursed. Read John's gospel. It has a strong emphasis on salvation by faith.