Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[notuptome]

I have shown what scripture says. You make assertions as to what I Corinthians 13 means, divorced from the context of the rest of the epistle.

You are making a false assertion. The context clearly indicates that the perfect is the bible.

I believe and teach that genuine tongues are the same thing described in Acts 2 and I Corinthians.

Then please describe them as the apostles would have spoken them. I will help direct you to the truth. Tongues are languages and at least 15 different languages were present at Pentecost.

I accept what all the other scriptures say about speaking in tongues also.

Only as far as it supports the false premise that tongues are active today in the church. Any church that teaches tongues are for today is a church that has left it's mission and is in rebellion against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Sure there is; "the perfect" is not identified in the verse. The reader cannot possibly understand the verse "literally" without having a preconceived idea of (or investigating after) what "the perfect" references. It is unreasonable to inject your interpretation of the word into a principle for interpreting the verse as a whole.

The following verse clearly identify the perfect.

1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Clearly the OT is part and the NT completes the word of God. Now with the completion of the NT we see as God allows us to see.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Guojing]

You are making a false assertion. The context clearly indicates that the perfect is the bible.

Then please describe them as the apostles would have spoken them. I will help direct you to the truth. Tongues are languages and at least 15 different languages were present at Pentecost.

Only as far as it supports the false premise that tongues are active today in the church. Any church that teaches tongues are for today is a church that has left it's mission and is in rebellion against God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The main difference between tongues and healing is that the former can be unverifiable by claiming its a heavenly language, even though nothing in Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14:21 indicate it to be anything else other than known foreign languages.

While healing, you can verify whether healing has taken place or not.

 

[Dino246]

The following verse clearly identify the perfect.

1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Clearly the OT is part and the NT completes the word of God. Now with the completion of the NT we see as God allows us to see.

Your version of "clear" falls somewhere between "murky" and "opaque".

There is nothing whatsoever in that passage that even hints that "the perfect" refers to the canon of Scripture, let alone identifying the old and new testaments. Your assertion is unadulterated eisegesis.

 

[Dino246]

The main difference between tongues and healing is that the former can be unverifiable by claiming its a heavenly language, even though nothing in Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14:21 indicate it to be anything else other than known foreign languages.

I'm not disagreeing with your point here, but I would like to clarify: with regard to "tongues", do you mean "known" as in the speaker knows the foreign language beforehand, or as in the language is recognized by the hearers as a particular foreign language?

 

[Guojing]

I'm not disagreeing with your point here, but I would like to clarify: with regard to "tongues", do you mean "known" as in the speaker knows the foreign language beforehand, or as in the language is recognized by the hearers as a particular foreign language?

Actual foreign languages, the speaker is not taught that language before but somehow is able to communicate that language to those who are native to it, at the moment of the gift being imparted.

 

[Dino246]

Actual foreign languages, the speaker is not taught that language before but somehow is able to communicate that language to those who are native to it, at the moment of the gift being imparted.

Thanks; for the most part, we agree on this.

 

[Guojing]

Thanks; for the most part, we agree on this.

That is nice to know, that we agree on something at least 🤣

 

[rodders2828]

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward, with the necessary scripture:

1. Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
2. The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
3. When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-21, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
4. Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
5. God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
6. Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
7. Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
8. Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
9. By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
10. Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Any comments and different perspectives?

I agree with some of this, but some important differences in opinion:

1. Agree.
2. Agree.
3. Agree.
4. Agree.

5. What? where does the 1yr extension come from? Israel rejected Christ and crucified him - this was prophesied and necessary. But Jesus prayed: 'forgive them' (Israel), and so the WHOLE Acts period is the second chance for ISRAEL to accept Jesus as THEIR promised messiah.
Initially in Jerusalem under the leadership of James/Peter, and later to the diaspora under Paul - but even then each new city he travelled to he went first to the synagogue to share the word - and only when the Jews rejected it he turned to the Gentiles "to provoke Israel to jealosy". This continued throughout Acts.
Even as late as Acts 28:20 Pauls states "..it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain". And earlier in the same chapter miracles are still in play as he healed the whole isle of Malta. It is only at the very end of Acts, in Acts 28:25-28 that we get the final dismissal of the Jews: "..THEREFORE let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles".

6. Agree.

7. Because of that rejection of Israel, a new 'dispensation' was ushered in AFTER Acts, which is reflected only in the post-Acts epistles (Eph, Col, Phi, 1&2 Tim, Tit, Phm) - here we see terms such as "hid in God", "unsearchable", "BEFORE the foundation of the world". The hope now becomes "in the HEAVENLIES". This is all NEW stuff, none of this is in the OT. Where as before this, the focus is all on Israel (to be the priests to the world in the millenium), EARTHLY hope, the kingdom, the 'signs and wonders' which are all prophesied in the OT. Even in late Acts Paul says he has claimed nothing but what is in the OT.

8. Paul and ALL (?) the other believers were given signs and wonders as a TASTE of that which was to come (ie. in the millennial kingdom).
See Acts 2.16-21 - Peter explains to the crowd at Pentecost what they are witnessing: "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will...' "
See Heb 6:5 - Paul is warning the Jews regarding their falling away: "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers OF THE AGE TO COME,..".
Here in these two passages we see WHY there were gifts during the Acts period. It was FOR the Jews as proof of the disciples' credentials, and it was a TASTE of the gifts that would come to ALL ISRAEL in the millennial kingdom.

9. Agree.
10. Agree.

 

[Guojing]

I agree with some of this, but some important differences in opinion:

1. Agree.
2. Agree.
3. Agree.
4. Agree.

5. What? where does the 1yr extension come from? Israel rejected Christ and crucified him - this was prophesied and necessary. But Jesus prayed: 'forgive them' (Israel), and so the WHOLE Acts period is the second chance for ISRAEL to accept Jesus as THEIR promised messiah.
Initially in Jerusalem under the leadership of James/Peter, and later to the diaspora under Paul - but even then each new city he travelled to he went first to the synagogue to share the word - and only when the Jews rejected it he turned to the Gentiles "to provoke Israel to jealosy". This continued throughout Acts.
Even as late as Acts 28:20 Pauls states "..it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain". And earlier in the same chapter miracles are still in play as he healed the whole isle of Malta. It is only at the very end of Acts, in Acts 28:25-28 that we get the final dismissal of the Jews: "..THEREFORE let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles".

6. Agree.

7. Because of that rejection of Israel, a new 'dispensation' was ushered in AFTER Acts, which is reflected only in the post-Acts epistles (Eph, Col, Phi, 1&2 Tim, Tit, Phm) - here we see terms such as "hid in God", "unsearchable", "BEFORE the foundation of the world". The hope now becomes "in the HEAVENLIES". This is all NEW stuff, none of this is in the OT. Where as before this, the focus is all on Israel (to be the priests to the world in the millenium), EARTHLY hope, the kingdom, the 'signs and wonders' which are all prophesied in the OT. Even in late Acts Paul says he has claimed nothing but what is in the OT.

8. Paul and ALL (?) the other believers were given signs and wonders as a TASTE of that which was to come (ie. in the millennial kingdom).
See Acts 2.16-21 - Peter explains to the crowd at Pentecost what they are witnessing: "But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will...' "
See Heb 6:5 - Paul is warning the Jews regarding their falling away: "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers OF THE AGE TO COME,..".
Here in these two passages we see WHY there were gifts during the Acts period. It was FOR the Jews as proof of the disciples' credentials, and it was a TASTE of the gifts that would come to ALL ISRAEL in the millennial kingdom.

9. Agree.
10. Agree.

Thanks for taking the time to share your view.

As far as the prophetic timetable is concerned, the cross marked the 69th week of Daniel, so if I put myself on Peter's shoes, I know that the Tribulation, which is the 70th week will begin anytime soon. In fact, that was what Peter preached to Israel in Acts 2, quoting from Joel.

We now know about the 1 year extension on retrospect, based on the parable Jesus stated in Luke 13:6-9. When Stephen saw Jesus standing up in heaven, that is foretelling Jesus returning to Earth to bring judgement on rebellious Israel, based on Psalms 2.

For point 8, the Jerusalem Council was a very critical event that will determine whether Paul's new gospel, the one he received from Christ Jesus thru direct revelation, will be accepted by James, Peter, and John, who were the 3 pillars.

Thus, the sign of tongues given to Cornelius, as well as the other signs and wonders given to Paul among the Gentiles, as stated in Acts 15:12, all help to push the case for Paul's gospel being accepted as legitimate. As Paul would tell us later, and mentioned in my point 1, the Jews required signs.

 

[notuptome]

Your version of "clear" falls somewhere between "murky" and "opaque".

There is nothing whatsoever in that passage that even hints that "the perfect" refers to the canon of Scripture, let alone identifying the old and new testaments. Your assertion is unadulterated eisegesis.

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[luigi]

Do you think its possible that the verse applied to the 12 apostles of Christ only and not us, similar to how you will interpret Matthew 19:28?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Lord in John 14:12 states: "He that believeth on me", shall do the works that He shall do, and even greater works. Why would you want to twist the Lord's Word to say something other than what He clearly says? There are other scriptures as well, which show the faithful in Christ at the conclusion of the tribulation under the beast's reign having power as that of Christ. Check out Micah 5 & 7 to see what happens after the travailing woman, who is the same travailing woman in Revelation 12, brings forth.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

 

[presidente]

You are making a false assertion. The context clearly indicates that the perfect is the bible.

You really wear a strong filter on those eyes when it comes to this passage. If this passage were talking about the Bible, you would be able to point to some proof to it from the context. Paul's thoughts, speech, and understanding did not change from being like that of a child's to that of an adults when the Bible was written. 'The Bible' does not fit the context. Nor do you have perfect knowledge because you have the Bible. Could you really say that you gained no knowledge of the word of God between the time you first read the Bible and now? If your knowledge were perfect, you would not need to learn.

Then please describe them as the apostles would have spoken them. I will help direct you to the truth. Tongues are languages and at least 15 different languages were present at Pentecost.

I believe 'tongues' are languages as I have been consistent about that through the years I have been on this forum.

Only as far as it supports the false premise that tongues are active today in the church. Any church that teaches tongues are for today is a church that has left it's mission and is in rebellion against God.

It is really sad that you would entrench yourself in such a position. It seems like you treat your interpretation as axiomatic, no matter how unreasonable it is. I Corinthians 12, after listing different gifts manifested in different members of the body, including 'divers tongues', speaks against saying to another member saying to another, "I have no need of thee."

 

[presidente]

For point 8, the Jerusalem Council was a very critical event that will determine whether Paul's new gospel, the one he received from Christ Jesus thru direct revelation, will be accepted by James, Peter, and John, who were the 3 pillars.

'Paul's new gospel'? What a terrible perspective hyper-dispensationalism is. Paul wrote that if any man preached another Gospel let him be accursed. Read John's gospel. It has a strong emphasis on salvation by faith.

 

[Dino246]

Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yada yada yada.

I can quote damning verses at you too; they prove nothing other than you have a low opinion of me and a lower opinion of proper hermeneutics.

 

[oldethennew]

oh what great loss comes from words spoken
without Love-patience-tolerance-...
yes, sometimes our words can be harsh or sweet,
but without Christ's Love inside them, they are but
emptiness without any value or colour...

 

[Guojing]

'Paul's new gospel'? What a terrible perspective hyper-dispensationalism is. Paul wrote that if any man preached another Gospel let him be accursed. Read John's gospel. It has a strong emphasis on salvation by faith.

the Other gospel that was taught then was found in acts 15:1.

The objective of acts 15 is to determine whether that was still valid among the gentiles,

 

[Guojing]

The Lord in John 14:12 states: "He that believeth on me", shall do the works that He shall do, and even greater works. Why would you want to twist the Lord's Word to say something other than what He clearly says? There are other scriptures as well, which show the faithful in Christ at the conclusion of the tribulation under the beast's reign having power as that of Christ. Check out Micah 5 & 7 to see what happens after the travailing woman, who is the same travailing woman in Revelation 12, brings forth.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

you Do agree that there are some instructions in the 4 gospels that only apply to the 12 correct?

 

[awelight]

Your version of "clear" falls somewhere between "murky" and "opaque".

There is nothing whatsoever in that passage that even hints that "the perfect" refers to the canon of Scripture, let alone identifying the old and new testaments. Your assertion is unadulterated eisegesis.

No it's actually very good exegesis. There is nothing in the text are in nearby text to lead one to believe it is the Lord or the coming Kingdom.

 

[awelight]

'Paul's new gospel'? What a terrible perspective hyper-dispensationalism is. Paul wrote that if any man preached another Gospel let him be accursed. Read John's gospel. It has a strong emphasis on salvation by faith.

Just some points for thought.....

You are aware that Paul called it his Gospel, are you not?

2Ti 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, of the seed of David, according to my gospel:

He also included himself with others, as you mentioned.

Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preaches unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.

I would say that Paul's message was oriented toward the Gentiles and certain ways of Jewish thinking had to be removed. His Gospel was the same, as Peters are any of the Apostles but Paul did have to correct the Jewish Apostles on several points:
1). The need for circumcision - was cast out by joint agreement but Paul was the one arguing for it's removal.
2). Peter was rebuked by Paul because he was guilty of Hypocrisy, giving into separation of the Jews from the Gentiles.
3). Sent one of the Gospel writers away, (believed to be John Mark) because he couldn't get along with him.

Additionally, I would say read John's Gospel and notice how many times he speaks of Election. So to in Paul's writings:

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Just some things that crossed my mind when I read your post.