Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

Well, you read the scripture for yourself. If someone is a believer, but holds a grudge not willing to forgive a fellow believer, then Jesus says of that person, neither heavenly Father forgive you. In fact in the context, the man was originally forgiven all his debt, but when he would not have compassion on his fellow believer, his sins were reinstated.

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

Thanks for sharing your view.

So according to how you understand scripture, Mark 16:17-18 was only directed to the original apostles, including Paul right?

The Body of Christ should not expect that for us now, even if Jesus said in Mark 16:17 that it was for those who believe?

Many other charismatic churches would claim that "those who believe" also mean those in the Body of Christ now who believes. Are they wrong for holding that doctrine?

And anyone else who demonstrated those gifts.


That's not what I said. If anyone is experiencing those gifts, then they were obviously given to them by the Spirit.



Yeah, and how many Christians do you know who are performing those gifts? I have never known or seen anyone who has demonstrated having those gifts. Obviously the gifts are real, but many today are forcing the issue.

The teaching that every believer should have these gifts is dangerous, because it creates churches where unless they perform them, then they are deemed as not saved. So quest what?! You get churches where everyone and his brother is speaking in languages, because nobody wants to be labeled as not saved. So what you have is a bunch of people just babbling and calling it speaking in languages.

So if my sins were reinstated, I guess you would say I would have lost my salvation?

The answer to that is, since God has forgiven us for our great sins against Him, then we ought to forgive those who in comparison, have minutely sinned against us. Regarding the issue of losing ones salvation, what do you make of the following:

"My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes a so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Then I don't understand your point.

Jesus said in Mark 16:17 that those signs follow those whom believe, that would mean all Christians right? We all believe in Christ right?

Did Jesus meant what he said there? It cannot be true only for "the apostles and anyone else who demonstrated those gifts", if that is the case, it will then be a circular or tautological argument.

And the scripture states that not everyone has the same gifts. You need to bring this into consideration. It says "those whom believe" not every one who believes. As Paul said, Do all speak in languages? Do all prophesy? Do all have gifts of healing? Everyone has their God-given gifts. Otherwise, what would your conclusion be of me if I tell you that I have never spoken in languages, I have never cast out a demon, I have never drank poison and lived, nor would I even pick up a poisonous snake to see if I was immune.

I agree with you that we ought to forgive others sins, since God forgave us of our great sins against him.

But if I don't, what do you think will happen? By what you are saying, I would be thrown into the fire and burned. Again, are you saying that means I would have lost my salvation?

Well, I believe that first, the Spirit of God would convict you of it and move you to repent and to make things right by forgiving that person. He's not saying if one time you did not forgive someone. You can repent of that and confess it and be forgiven. But if you have a continuous unforgiving spirit, then that would be a problem.

The fruit spoken of, is believers taking on the characteristics of God's nature. As we continue from faith to faith, we are being transformed into the image of Christ, which is a life-long process, also referred to as the sanctification of the Spirit, i.e. the process of being made holy.

The face that you hesitate to answer my direct question with a yes or no, but rather use words like "that would be a problem", you are not really saying one can ever lose their salvation right?

I suppose what you meant by "problems", would be things will go wrong for you, you will find your prayers not answered etc etc.

But you do believe salvation cannot be lost right?

What I am saying is that you are being rigid.

I would simply ask you the question: "have you spoken in languages by the power of the Holy Spirit? Do you have the gift of healing, where a person say has terminal cancer and God healed them through you? If not, then because you don't have those gifts, does that mean that you are not saved?



I believe that we are saved by grace through faith. That said, if one turns away from having faith, going back to living according to the sinful nature, that person has wandered from the truth and is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. However, when the Spirit makes this known to the individual and he/she repents, then those sins are covered and they are saved from death.

Salvation is conditional on having faith from first to last. If someone turns from faith, they are no longer bearing fruit and are no longer being transformed into Christ's image. Remember the following:

"Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

If a believer is no longer having faith, they have stopped taking up their cross

And there are many more examples like this.

Well, you read the scripture for yourself. If someone is a believer, but holds a grudge not willing to forgive a fellow believer, then Jesus says of that person, neither heavenly Father forgive you. In fact in the context, the man was originally forgiven all his debt, but when he would not have compassion on his fellow believer, his sins were reinstated.

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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

yes

he made his first 'division' in the garden between God and His human creation

Jesus said people would know us by our love for one another...not our doctrine

Jesus words are not doctrine. they are life and God's love

when you love someone so much you die for them, it must hurt to see these same persons divide you up and dismiss you

God help us

Odd things like Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24?

So you agree that not all the sayings of Jesus are directed to us correct?

If you believe this scripture is to the body of Christ, then you must believe one can lose their salvation. That’s a works based salvation.

What are the contents of the gospel of the kingdom that was preached to the Jews first?