"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".

Should we be looking at this with more emphasis toward, 'those who endure to the end' rather than 'those who endure to the end?' Could this be more an id marker of the saved and less a directive for them?

When I read today's generated 'verse of the moment' earlier, I trusted I would have opportunity to apply it probably sooner than later and I believe I see where now. Hebrews 12:3-4, I think, offers a relevant insight here. In 3, Consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart." touching on outer struggles) And 4, "In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted unto blood." I'm not confident the paragraph division is warranted here, as verse 4 strikes me to a continuation of the thought in verse 3, tho as to the inner struggle.

As such that Jesus' endurance of hostility from sinners and also His accomplishment against sin (I can imagine that He must've been tempted, as much as I would be, to curse those crucifying Him) provides us, those that trust Him and His word et al, with that strength to 'not grow weary and lose heart,' and so, endure to the end.

Yes I would agree, the verse qualifies it to the believer in Christ, it is about the tribulation period and their physical survival of those events.

It comforts tremendously me to understand salvation as 'wholey' and completely saved.

Okay, I will go along with that.

In the context of Matthew 24, Jesus is referring to his followers enduring the great tribulation. Very easy to interpret different if you're attempting to conform scripture to pre-tribulation rapture theology, but scripture speaks for itself. Read Matthew 24 again with this in mind.

Matthew 24:3 "While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

The discourse that follows is the admonition to his disciples to not be deceived and to read the signs of the time accurately: persecution for being a Christian being one of the signs of "His coming and of the end of the age."

You will not die of old age?

It amazes me that two people can be led by the same scripture and understand it as saying different things. I think it is because scripture has to be read as a whole, with every verse agreeing with every other verse.

When we accept Christ within and give ourselves to Christ we receive the powerful holy spirit, but if you reread Ephesians 1 you find that it tells us it is believers in Christ who receives this power. If someone rejects the holy spirit and gives themselves to sin instead of Christ at any time, then they reject the holy spirit.

I should think that it would be frightening to decide you know just exactly how the tribulation will be worked out by the Lord.

The Pharisees did this giving a step by step plan of the Lord about how he would carry out the coming of the Messiah. They got it wrong, and by saying you know exactly how God will work out the end when God hasn't told us you can be sure you have it wrong like they did.

Jesus was speaking to the Jews of His day, not to people who lived after John gave us the book of Revelation. And that book is written to tell us of prophecy, not the step by step way that prophecy will come about.

If you think that me trying to understand the Bible makes me a Pharisee then you have no idea what you're talking about.

We are called to understand the Bible. I'm attempting to do that.

What a Pharisee is is someone who is a self-righteous hypocrite and I don't appreciate you suggesting that about me on a forum made exclusively for Bible discussion.

It adds nothing of value and is distracting and deconstructive to discussion and learning. Thank you.

God gave us His Word in writing so we could know these things to come. The Pharisees ignored the Scriptures that didn't line up with their traditions/agenda, and so as a result...missed Jesus their Messiah.

//Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.// Yes we see her
But we have verses many that say we are SEALED until Glorification. Not sealed until we mess up ,or sealed until .....fill in the blanks .I understand we also understand other scriptures, but not to undo verses by other verses . I see people suddenly become all loose on some verses because it doesn't fit their particular denomination , system or theology .

Endure to the end of our life.
To me it doesn't matter in great tribulation or not, God want us to endure to the end

God want us to keep trust Him every time when ever as long as we live.

Some people stop obey like what Adam and Eve did.

I know a person when he have terminal ill like cancer, he is so panic, stop believing Jesus and go to shaman, ask the devil to help him. Endure to the end need faith.

Then paul did not experience salvation.

But he says he endured to the end;
2 tim 4;
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

In rev it says the AC is given power to overcome the saints.
It also says the saints overcame him through death.

The martyrs mentioned near the end of rev did not make it through the gt alive,and yet are given thrones.
Obviously they are saved.

There is no rapture at the end of the gt.

But the ONLY reason to make "saved" transpose into "saved alive" is to try and fit a rapture into the second coming at the end of the gt.

Does not work.

.
● Matt 19:17 . . And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the
commandments

Seeing as none but God are good, then it's obvious that none but God can
enter into life by means of goodness. However, if someone would like to give
it a try anyway in spite of the fact that failure is a foregone conclusion; then
Jesus suggests they begin their quest with the commandments.
_

Or maybe your pre-trib rapture does not work.

We are in the tribulation the last days. The time of reformation. . .restored to the time period of Judges. Men and women (mankind ) prophets sent as apostles declaring' the will of God .The persecuted tribulation of the bride of Christ, the church .

Those who will endure to the end are those Christ has given his faith as a labor of His love to . If he has begun the good work of his faith in us he as our confidence will finish it. . .

He is our confidence. We put no confidence in the good works that we do perform according the the authority or power of His name .He promises us he will not forget those good works he woks in us with us. .

The promise...

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The working out of the promise. We should believe without murmuring like Jonas .

Philippians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

That passage is speaking to tribulations saints. Telling them even though at that time there will be great tribulation such as never been before or after. Whoever endures to the end will be saved. It’s a message of hope and encouragement to them to give them power to endure that great time of trouble

Why would you change my saying that we can't know step by step how God will bring prophecy about into "trying to understand the bible"?

I'm saying that I'm here to discuss the Bible in the Bible discussion forum. You're the one assigning me as a Bible know-it-all (I never claimed to be) and a Pharisee which is false.

We absolutely can know as much of God's plan as is revealed by scripture. Rather than just have a discussion with me it honestly looks like you're using ad hominems.

Can we just put that behind us and get back to the main point?

We see many posts, on Christianchat, that go back and forth as to the proper understanding of Soteriology (The study of salvation). Many use the terms "Calvinism" or "Arminianism". This battle should be called "Free Grace vs. Free Will" and it has raged for Centuries. The ones who hold to "Free Grace", believe in the "Eternal Covenant of Grace". This covenant was foreshadowed, in the covenant with Abraham. They believe that salvation is all of God, set forth in Eternity. Those on the "Free Will" side, deny "Limited Atonement", "spiritual depravity" and attempt to place man's will on a par with God's in salvation.

What unsaved men and many religionist truly hate though, is:

The Sovereignty of God!

Those on the "Free Grace" side, do not kick against God's Sovereignty, they rejoice in it. Those who attempt to place mans "Free Will" in to the mix, must attempt to usurp God's Sovereignty, in order to dismantle the doctrine of ELECTION. This doctrine is the extension of the "Covenant of Grace, which was settled in Eternity before anything was created. The oft time complaint is, "God would never force His will on our will." Complete foolishness. He would and He does.

Let's test ourselves, to see if we be in the faith. (2 Cor. 13:15) Do we kick against Sovereignty or love it:

God's Sovereignty in Creation and His Sustaining it:

1) God is the Creator of all things. (Genesis)
2) God sustains His creation, moment by moment.
--- Isa 42:5 Thus saith God Jehovah, he that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he that spread abroad the earth and that which is coming out of it; he that is giving breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
--- Rev 11:11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.
--- Col 1:15-16 who is the image of the invisible God (Christ), the firstborn of all creation; for in Him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; (Note here that everything, including who is going to rule, who has authority and how things are governed, is included.)

God's Sovereignty in Providence:

1) God's eternal purpose is being worked out in time.
--- Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:
--- Ecc 3:14-15 I know that, whatsoever God is doing, it shall be for ever: nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; and God hath done it, that men should fear before him. That which is has been long ago; and that which is to be has long ago been: and God is seeking again that which is passed away. (With God there is no past or future in eternity, just the ever present NOW. If we have the right concept of eternity, then this passage is easy to understand but if no proper understanding, a person reading this will be lost. Since nothing can be added and nothing can be lost, then in the case of the elect, the number saved is sure. Those adhering to "Free Grace" should rejoice at this assurance.)
--- Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
--- Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create calamity. I am Jehovah, that is doing all these things.

God's Sovereignty in our Birth:

--- Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?
--- Isa 44:2 Thus saith Jehovah that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, who will help thee: Fear not, O Jacob my servant; and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

God's Sovereignty in Rulers:

--- Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
--- Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the watercourses: He is turning it wheresoever he will.
--- John 19:10-11 Pilate therefore saith unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have authority to release thee, and have authority to crucify thee? Jesus answered him, Thou would not have any authority against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath greater sin.

God's Sovereignty in Salvation:

1) God's sovereign Purpose:
--- Acts_26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
---Rom 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
---Rom 9:11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that is calling,
---Ecc 11:5 As you are not knowing what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child; even so you are not knowing the work of God who is doing it all.
2) God's Sovereign Election/Divine choice:
--- Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
---Col 1:12-14 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins:
---Rom 11:7 What then? That which Israel is looking for, that he obtained it not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
---1Th 1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
3) God's Sovereignty in Choice/Application:
---Rom 8:28-29 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, ( These first three points, Purpose, foreknowledge and predestination, are the direct results of God's eternal Love.). them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ( The next three, Called, Justified and Glorified, are God's actions toward the Elect only.)

Finally, these verses should give all true believers reason to rejoice:

Rom 9:24-26 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.

For the only way that one can LOVE God, is in this way:

1Jn 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.

Could give more but out of room