Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot
- Thread starter GraceAndTruth
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Someone is being deceptive here. Let's see who it really is.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Them is different than everyone, isn't it? Who's the them that Romans 11 is talking about?
It is funny how 9/10 when someone accuses you of something it is usually themselves that is doing what they accuse.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Them is different than everyone, isn't it? Who's the them that Romans 11 is talking about?
It is funny how 9/10 when someone accuses you of something it is usually themselves that is doing what they accuse.
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Calvinism is biblically sound, that's why you loathe it.
It is noted you don't bring any substance, just lip, false accusations, noise, blather. You wouldn't last long in a Biblical debate and would have to resort to the above baseless and childish ad hominem. It is the sign of losing the battle. You bring no game because you have no game.
Every single day you come with the same old baseless unsubstantiated drivel.
Can we expect you to do the same again tomorrow?
It is noted you don't bring any substance, just lip, false accusations, noise, blather. You wouldn't last long in a Biblical debate and would have to resort to the above baseless and childish ad hominem. It is the sign of losing the battle. You bring no game because you have no game.
Every single day you come with the same old baseless unsubstantiated drivel.
Can we expect you to do the same again tomorrow?
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A lot of the trouble with Calvinism is the passages presented as proof texts are read in a very modern manner. Ideas that became entrenched with the church by Augustine and later Latin fathers are taken as authoritative and then the modern applications are read into the ancient text.
Looking prior to Augustine there is almost unanimous consent among those who wrote on predestination/freewill that Scripturally men have free will. From the apostolic fathers, to the apologists, to the pre-latin fathers such as Jerome.
It is only when the Bible is read with Augustine's manichean philosophies superimposed over it that Calvinism becomes tenable, and then only if verses are taken in isolation as proof of doctrine.
Looking prior to Augustine there is almost unanimous consent among those who wrote on predestination/freewill that Scripturally men have free will. From the apostolic fathers, to the apologists, to the pre-latin fathers such as Jerome.
It is only when the Bible is read with Augustine's manichean philosophies superimposed over it that Calvinism becomes tenable, and then only if verses are taken in isolation as proof of doctrine.
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I completely disagree with this approach and the ad hominem people try with Augustine.
Have you read any of Augustines stuff? He is OBVIOUSLY saved.
Once a person is saved that knowledge supercedes all other "philosophies".
Calvin doesn't reference any "manichean" philosophies in his Institutes. He references scripture.
Have you read any of Augustines stuff? He is OBVIOUSLY saved.
Once a person is saved that knowledge supercedes all other "philosophies".
Calvin doesn't reference any "manichean" philosophies in his Institutes. He references scripture.
I never implied Augustine wasn't saved, merely that he took his manichean learnings and brought them with him and created an unBiblical picture of original sin and flesh.
Augustine introduced an innovation into the church with his take on those two topics that is distinct from all those who came before and those who continued to primarily write in Greek. Augustine contributed greatly to the annals of theology but he holds undue weight in the post-Latin church.
Are you implying that salvation brings with it infallible knowledge? The issue with Luther and Calvin is they took things introduced to the church by Augustine and argued them to razor sharp precision.
But those things that were introduced are the result of stepping away from the cultures that the Bible was based on and overlaying a 5th century judicial model on the entire thing.
Augustine introduced an innovation into the church with his take on those two topics that is distinct from all those who came before and those who continued to primarily write in Greek. Augustine contributed greatly to the annals of theology but he holds undue weight in the post-Latin church.
Are you implying that salvation brings with it infallible knowledge? The issue with Luther and Calvin is they took things introduced to the church by Augustine and argued them to razor sharp precision.
But those things that were introduced are the result of stepping away from the cultures that the Bible was based on and overlaying a 5th century judicial model on the entire thing.
I'm not an expert on Augustine. I read his Confessions and I could absolutely tell from those that he was saved.
The ideas he conveyed there didn't seem foreign or "manichean". They seemed like the logical ideas that are born of questioning what is happening during salvation.
And yes, salvation does bring with it some knowledge that only Christ can give. Is this knowledge infallible? Yes. But trying to extrapolate from that can bring fallible things.
The ideas he conveyed there didn't seem foreign or "manichean". They seemed like the logical ideas that are born of questioning what is happening during salvation.
And yes, salvation does bring with it some knowledge that only Christ can give. Is this knowledge infallible? Yes. But trying to extrapolate from that can bring fallible things.
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Romans 3:23 it is easily understood to mean every individual person,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
just as Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
So yes God does mercy upon all >>>> whosoever!!
He is not selecting a few according to His limited mercy.>>>>>>> the invitation is open to all.
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