By Works

Yes, when a person is born again God puts the Holy Spirit in that person. The person who is not born again does have the Spirit of God living in him. But the unsaved person is created in the image of God and has a spirit and is a spiritual being. (Being unsure what you mean by 'spiritual nature" I cannot answer if the unsaved person has a "spiritual nature")


Did I say that being born again "depends upon man's response". I think those are your words interpreting what I said.

Here are two quotes from what I said:

The grace of God begins to work in the life and heart of the unbeliever: then as his heart and mind is stirred by the Spirit and by the grace of God, he begins to respond with a God-given faith (believing). Then he is born again by the power and grace of God through the channel of his faith in Jesus Christ.

It is by (God's) grace through (our response in) faith, and all of this is not of ourselves, but the whole thing is a package gift from God.

I think I say very clearly there that the source of salvation is from God, not man. Even man's response of faith comes about from the grace of God working in Him.

Thus, I simply affirm that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.

Romans 8
8 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. 9 Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

what do you mean by the non born again having the Spirit of God?

Ah, glad you caught it - my mistake - forgot the word "not"

Should read "The person who is not born again does not have the Spirit of God living in him."

LOL! You were kind to not too quickly accuse me of downright heresy!

See posts 82,83 for a mistake I made in post 81

Come on what kind of works?
Works of the law?
Works of faith?
Works of self-righteousness?

It is like saying the bible says leaven is an example of something bad.

What kind of leaven?
Leaven of the Pharisees?
Leaven of Righteousness?

If your not clear of course there will be strife...
Unless that is your goal....

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

I am a believer that all scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the truth of the doctrine of Jesus Christ. You have a different view of the makeup of the carnal (unregenerate) man than I do. The regenerate person has been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The unregenerate person's mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Rom 8:7). 1 Cor 2 explains the difference between the carnal (natural) man and the spiritual man, which is contrasting to each other.

Eph 2:5 states that the unregenerate person even when he was spiritually dead (not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be) in sins, God quickened (made him alive) together with Christ. This verse, to me, explains the true grace of God, without any response, or actions of the person.

The unregenerate person has faith in mankind only. The regenerate person has spiritual faith, which is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that dwells within him, Gal 5:22.

I believe that every Scripture when rightly interpreted will harmonize with all other Scriptures rightly interpreted. We should begin with Scripture and study it to find our doctrine.

Many people begin with doctrine, and then when they interpret Scripture, they harmonize the Scripture with their doctrine.

You seem to begin with a "without any response" doctrine and then find that in Scripture. But that is my opinion only from observing what you write. I could be wrong (and have been before, LOL!). Blessings . . .

I agree with you, that we should start with scripture before we will ever understand the doctrine that Jesus taught. Isaiah 28:9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. Paul, in 1 Cor 3, is talking to babes in Christ, which are born again, but are not knowledgeable in their thinking beyond the carnal level.

By starting with scriptures, if you don't mind spending your time with me, how do you interpret the verses of scripture that I have given you in post #88?

For my information, can you give me some scriptures that tell us that we must "respond to get eternal life"?

"Salvation" according to Greek interpretation means "a deliverance". I do believe that the scriptures teach we must respond to God's commandments (instructions) in order to live a peaceful and abundant life as we sojourn here in this world. I believe the scriptures teach that there is a deliverance when born again "babes in Christ" come unto a knowledge of the doctrine that Jesus taught. Romans 10:1-4, to me, explains that we can be delivered (saved), here in time, by coming unto a knowledge of the righteousness of God. This is the same thing that Paul is teaching, those babes in Christ, in 1 Cor 3.

Again, you are confusing works of the law with works of faith, and justification with righteousness.
And isn't it also written that God speaks of things WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY ARE or were?

No, but it does mean the car is not going to start until you turn the ignition key, step on the gas peddle, and steer the vehicle.
Without a corresponding work, NOT WORKS, your faith is impotent, unable to do move or work for you.
I say again, God will not do anything for you until you act on His word in faith, FIRST.
And I will go even further by saying, it is your faith that does the work, after you do a corresponding work.

And works, as you understand it, are dead/impotent/useless/ of no effect, without the God kind of faith, which means, absolutely NO DOUBTING that what you have asked for is granted and shall come to pass. NOT EVEN FOR A MOMENT.
Whatever is done outside of faith, generally speaking, is sin.
So if someone tells you the food you are about to eat might make you sick, and another says you'll be fine, and you eat said food not knowing, but wondering if you will get sick or not, after you prayed and thanked God for it, then you just ate said food in sin.



That is correct as far as God not saying Abraham was not accounted righteous, because He used the word, "JUSTIFIED" instead.
Again, though the two words are similar, they are not the same.
Righteous has to do more with living morally and doing the right things, whereas being justified has more to do with being forgiven/acquitted of an offense/sin and MADE right through and via this wiping away or clearing of the offense.
We who have received Christ in faith, have been forgiven of our sins, by the grace of God, and made righteous by the removal or cleansing of said sins by the blood of Christ.
That rap sheet of ours was wiped clean, so to speak, as if it we never did anything wrong... until we sinned again.
But that is what happened to Abraham when he offered up Isaac.
He was justified and made as if he never sinned.
Job was a righteous man, but was never justified.
If a man does good/kind/moral works, as far as your understanding goes, they are seen by God as righteous.
BUT, if a person believes God's promises and acts on that in faith, then they will be made just before God.
No repentance of sin is necessary.
They are justified solely on their single, one time act or work of done in faith.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by a work [or act of faith] a man is justified, and not by faith only [or without a corresponding work].

Rather than waste my time going through your whole post, I would like to point out that you are still taking James chapter 2 out of context.
James' account of faith plus a work, - [person is hungry and naked = faith] + [give food and clothing = ONE work]... End of faith and single act or work of faith.
Again, James' account of Abraham's justification, - [Abraham belied God would resurrect Isaac = faith] + [offered up Isaac ONE TIME]... End of faith and only ONE SINGLE corresponding work to Abraham's specific faith.
Again, James' account of Rahab, - [Rahab believed and received spies = faith] + [sent spies out another way, ONCE, to save herself and family]... End of faith and single corresponding act or work of Rahab's faith.
Your interpretation of James chapter 2, - [a broad or general trust in Christ to move through the believer = calling it faith] + [going to church once or twice a week, reading the bible, fellowshipping with other believers, studying the bible, praying, worshipping God... etc. = many many acts or works of the law and some works of faith OVER A LIFETIME]... NO end of faith and the NEVER ENDING acts or works (plural) of the so-called faith.

Even on the surface, I don't see how you can say your interpretation of James is within the context of what is written.
And if all these so-called works done in faith, prove you have the "TRUE FAITH", then how come you haven't found even one tare among the wheat IN THE CHURCH AND AMONG THE BELIEVERS?
What does that have to do with anything, you ask?
If your kind of works prove you have the real or true faith, then how is it that the wolves in sheep's clothing, goats, and tares among you in the church are doing the same thing?
My point is, the kind of works you are referring to, can and are done by the children of the devil with you, because they ARE AMONG YOU IN THE CHURCH AND INNER CIRCLES.
Some are your pastors and teachers.
I use to know a wicked man who was a deacon of a small church. There was nothing godly about him. He was a deacon because of his rank and because he gave them some money.
I know another man who, as I have said before in other posts, would put most Christians to shame by what he does concerning giving and helping others and the poor.
Point being, NONE of those specific works you failed to mention prove you have the true faith, because the wicked, ungodly, and sinners are doing the same.

James said what he meant and meant what he said, to the 12 tribes of Israel.

It is only us now that are trying to help James out, by trying to fit what he said to Israel, to align with what Paul is saying to the Body of Christ.

James is not such a bad communicator that he needs any of our help.

James say faith without work is dead.
I attend bible study and the leader say salvation is by faith, a young man ask, he do sin every day, I know that young man he do drug and free sex
The leader replay, it doesn't matter you not going lose your salvation.

I am not try to judge, but is that what James teach?
Make me confuse. I am sinner too but because I am a sinner, than I say, killing every day is ok as long as I believe Jesus I will not lose my salvation. To be save is only need confest our sin and invite jesus

As I already explained to you in post #67, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (works of faith/good works) argument is in error. *NOWHERE in scripture did the apostle Paul say that man is saved "by" works of any kind. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul clearly stated we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Paul did not say saved through faith (plus works of faith) and just not works (of the law). In Romans 4:5-6, the apostle Paul also clearly stated - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. You also cannot separate justification and righteousness. Those who are justified are accounted as righteous.

Again, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. You are making this out to be more complicated than it really is. Authentic good works are produced "out of" authentic faith yet we are still saved through faith, not works and not faith and works.

Faith that saves trusts in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Bogus faith that trusts in works for salvation and not in Christ alone cannot save.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. This cannot be separated.

You are confusing positional righteousness in Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 6:11) with practical righteousness in regards to living morally. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

This makes no sense at all.

Continued...

They are shown to be righteous by works, but man is not accounted as righteous by works.

A person is made just before God by faith and not by works.

Repentance is a necessary prerequisite when coming to faith.

Nobody is justified (accounted as righteous) by works. (Romans 4:2-6)

Again, the accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. So Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

I completely disagree.

Did Paul say faith "plus a work" in Romans 4:2-3? No. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

You call reading the bible, fellowshipping with other believers, studying the bible, praying, worshipping God... etc. = many many acts or works of the law?

Probably because you seem to be really confused.

It's not hard to find tares among the wheat in various Christian churches. See 1 John 2:19 for example.

Wolves in sheep's clothing are capable of doing external works for the wrong purpose and with the wrong motivation, yet God knows their hearts. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not hard to find them mixed together in various Christian churches.

They are also among believers on various Christian forums. God knows our hearts and He knows who is truly trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and who is not. He knows the difference between genuine good works done out of faith and external so called good works done out of a lack of authentic faith done for show or other invalid reasons.

I have also come across wolves in sheep's clothing in various churches and on various Christian forums over the years. We show our faith by our works, but we are not saved by works and only God infallibly knows the hearts of ALL men. Authentic good works in which we are truly shown to be righteous are done "out of" authentic faith. A good tree produces good fruit but a bad tree produces bad fruit. There is no fooling God. He knows who the wheat are and who the tares are.

Here is Ephesians 2:1-10:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am not really sure why such an argument: I essentially agree with your point that God takes us when we are yet sinners apart from Him (vs. 1-3), and reaches down in His love and mercy and brings the new birth to us (vs. 4-5). Hallelujah! The new birth is all about God! His love! His kindness! His grace! (vs. 4-8). And the entire thing is a gift from God! A pure and simple gift with no strings attached! And then God works in the believer to make him a beautiful crafted product for His glory! (vs. 10).

Vs. 8 says we are "saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God": I think I have already explained that simply how I understand it: God's graces is the starting point and then as His grace works in our heart we are able to respond by believing (faith): but all of the process and even the faith is a gift from God.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life.
That verse gives essentially the same scenario: God started the process by His love through His Son, and then as we believe in Him, He gives everlasting life.

I guess I just simplistically take what these verses say: that is enough for me!

It doesn't matter who it was written to in this case.
The law of faith under the old covenant operates the same way in the new.
There is only one Godlike faith, and it hasn't change and never will.
James in merely showing how it works and why it doesn't work for many.

You sir, are incorrect on at least 3 accounts.
First, you can indeed separate works of faith from the law, because it has nothing to do with the moral law but the law of grace.
Second, though it is true Paul did not say, we are saved by works, but he did show how we are saved by A work done in faith.
And third, again, though it is true that when a person is just before God they are accounted righteous, but they are not the same.
We are righteous under the law, but we are justified under the law of grace.
We enter into God's grace, and are justified, through faith in Him and His word, BUT NOT BY ANYTHING WE DO OUTSIDE OF FAITH.
The good things we do apart from faith, are only the kind of works covered under the old covenant.
It doesn't matter if you are born again or not.
If a believer and a nonbeliever do the same good work, they are both done under the law, unless the believer does the work in faith.
Back to the first point.
Good works (plural) are of the law under the old testament, where a work of faith is under the new.
Works with no faith = the law.
Works in faith = grace.
And as for Paul not saying anything about salvation through a work of faith, have you not read closely, Romans 10:8-10?

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

SAVED BY THE MOUTH!!!
The confession itself, when spoken in faith, IS BOTH THE WORD AND WORK OF FAITH SPOKEN OF IN JAMES 2.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified G1344 by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness G1343 .

Notice the scripture says, "IF Abraham was justified by works of the law", and that it didn't use the word righteous?
A man can obtain righteousness, under the law, LIKE JOB, but no removal of sins.
But it take a corresponding work of faith, in order for a man to be justified and forgiven, by God's grace.
Google search "what is the difference between righteousness and justification".

How is it that you fail to comprehend and understand something so simple.
Those who do works under the old testament law, CANNOT obtain justification, only righteousness, like Job and Abraham.
In the old testament, no one was just, not one person.
But under the new covenant, all who believe and receive Christ by faith, are justified before God.

It's you who remains incorrect and as I already previously explained, you cannot dissect works of faith/good works from the moral aspect of the law. In John 1:17, we read - For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Yet in Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Works of faith/good works are not "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Once again, in James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would be to love your neighbor as yourself.

*In Romans 13:8-10, we read - Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

What work is that? Did Paul forget to mention that work in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9? Can you show me where Paul said man is saved by grace through faith plus a work done in faith? I can't find that verse in my Bible.

When a person is justified by faith before God they are accounted as righteous in the sight of God. (Romans 4:2-6)

The apostle Paul did not say we are righteous under the law, but he did say we are not justified by the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16) Romans 3:27 - Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. In Romans 10:4, Paul also said - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

We are justified by faith and have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:1-2) Nothing there about faith and works done out of faith.

Are you saying that the believer is saved by faith plus works done in faith?

Say what? In Ephesians 2:10, the apostle Paul said - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Paul is talking about good works (plural) here and these good works are done in faith. How would that be of the law under the old testament? It's very difficult to follow your unorthodox logic.

I have read Romans 10:8-10 very closely and Paul did not refer to confession here as a "work of faith." Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation.

I've heard people interpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to/merely reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

SAVED BY THE MOUTH!!!

Click to expand...

Someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to your erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to verbally confess with their mouth. Where did James mention "confession" as being both the word and work of faith in James chapter 2?

We clearly see here that Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works.

You "added" the words "of the law" here in Romans 4:2. The translation simply reads, "justified by works" and not works of the law and Abraham was before the law and if someone is justified they are accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-3) so your point is moot.

Say what? Righteousness under the law would take sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to the law. Only Jesus Christ would qualify under those terms. Ecclesiastes 7:20 - Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Job admitted his human sinfulness. (Job 7:21; 13:26) So much for obtaining righteousness under the law.

Is that what we read in Romans 5:1-2 and Ephesians 2:8,9? - NO.

Are those who have been accounted as righteous, justified? Are those who are justified, accounted as righteous? (Romans 4:2-3)

Now that statement is the epitome of irony! You continue to make this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

Once again, your unorthodox logic is hard to follow.

No one is just in of themselves. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23) So how were the old testament saints saved?

By faith or faith plus works of faith? Or do you just include works of faith into your definition of faith?