Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

I think you are onto something, but I first need to verify it. My Greek is not very strong. Tribulum as a wheat harvesting implement, and that relating to the Tribulation...except Revelation usually refers to harvesting grapes, not wheat....this all stands to impact the reading of Revelation substantially. However....

I Thessalonians 4:17 explicitly says the living are raised after. Although yes, it is technically possible that all this occurs in the twinkling of an eye, I am incredulous that the dead are raised first--as in a few milliseconds before the living--and the dead and the living are all Raptured together--all in the span of ~300 milliseconds (or roughly the amount of time it takes to blink). I have to believe that a PERCEPTIBLE amount of time elapses between the time the dead are resurrected and the Rapture occurs. It is the TRANSFORMATION into new bodies which happens in the twinkling of an eye.

Such an unfolding of events I do not believe sits well with this idea of a sudden disappearance as is generally believed by Pre-trib.

I found some research:

https://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_53-5#tribulation

The Greek word for Tribulation as it appears in the Bible is Thlipsis--not Tribulum. Although tribulum is a Latin word which certainly would have existed in the time of the Codex Vaticanus, etc.. Thlipsis refers to the pressing of grapes, or figuratively periods of great stress on a man.

I believe that this insight into the word makes a significant case in favor of post-Trib. Both thlipsis and tribulum suggest a harvest implement for separating the wheat from the chaff (or the wine from the grapes). It suggests the Tribulation as a time of separating the men from the boys, or the true believers from the non-believers. If the believers are not present, then what is there to separate?

That is not to say that it disproves Pre-trib, however. It's possible that the thlipsis only separates the blood from the living (Revelation 14:20), or that the Tribulation separates those who come to belief after the Rapture.

Most Exclusive Brethren have traditionally been described as "Darbyite" as they adhere in the main to the original doctrines and teachings of John Darby, and do not accept the concept of a doctrine that evolves through the teachings of successive leaders.

Like the Exclusives, Open Brethren have traditionally based much of their doctrine on the teachings of John Nelson Darby.

The term "Darbyites" is also used, especially when describing the Exclusive branch which has a more pronounced influence from Darby.

Although J. N. Darby renounced so much of his Anglican heritage, he did not repudiate infant baptism.

Darby was convinced that the Baptist position [on baptism] was unscriptural.

Therefore Darby refused to have a believers baptism and instead rested on his infant baptism from the false Anglican chruch (an arm of the Roman Catholic Church).

http://adayofsmallthings.com/why-i-...household-baptism-the-house-and-the-assembly/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Brethren

John Nelson Darby had no problem labeling Baptists "a sect". so why don't you call out his false witness.

Yes I'm getting to a point where I'm at a loss for terminology. But I think we understand each other and that's the main thing.

That's perfectly fine. I do understand you.

I usually only bring up the "harvest" issues when there are those endeavoring to "prove" a POST-trib rapture BY SAYING that, see, "the 144,000" are said to be "FIRSTfruit" meaning, that WE/the Church which is His body" are the MAIN harvest (according to their viewpoint) i.e. that we come in AFTER them (i.e. AFTER the trib yrs), and since they obviously aren't even in existence on the earth YET, therefore, our Rapture doesn't happen BEFORE they are even here/BEFORE them... See what I mean?

This is, as I see it, a severe misunderstanding of the "TWO 'firstfruit' in Lev23" issue, and James 1:18's saying specifically "A KIND [G5100 - tis - a certain kind] of firstfruit" (i.e. agreeing there is indeed more than ONE "firstfruit," and thus, more than ONE "harvest," just as Lev23 SHOWS, not to mention other related passages).

It's all good. = )


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I do find it sad that when people cannot address the passages of Scripture being covered (in the discussion) that they resort to some sort of "character assassination / guilt by association" they perceive ?? I find that rather oddball, but whatever...

When I spoke specifically of the word "tribulum" (HARVEST implement), I was addressing the "WHEAT harvest" specifically, which is what takes place at "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" per Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50... which is at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... NOT at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per context... and which passage's [Matt13] events are showing to take place in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE as that of "our Rapture" where described/explained (... they are not the same thing/event, nor at the same time-slot).


[note again: I do believe "the Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulationS" and "persecutions" (2Th1:4, etc) ALL through its entire existence on the earth since the first century..., and that we are not AWAITING "the future 7-yr period" in order to experience it]

"Exact opposite sequence"
Great observation thank you for that.

Tribulation is never mentioned in Matthew 13. Of course the sheep will be separated from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, what have you. That matches Revelation 20:11 onward. The means or order of doing it are never mentioned--except perhaps that it says Jesus will send angels to do the sorting, and not Jesus himself.

I find that statement odd because you believe that you and your special group are going to be taken out of here alive but you can’t fathom that Christ said that ALL believers, not just you and your special “end times” group but EVERY BELIEVERS blessed hope is that ALL OF US will NEVER DIE because he takes up PRIOR TO the death of this body.

And this whole ridiculous thread is over an event that you guys have HIJACKED from ALL BELIEVERS and turned it into something that DOESN’T EVEN EXIT. PURE HERESY!

That special group that yo mentioned above, is the church. And Jesus made a promise that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for all believers and that He would come back to get us and take us to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. This event is going to happen prior to His wrath, not after. For you to put the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath would nullify the wrath that Jesus suffered on our behalf. And since God's wrath has already been satisfied, then we the church cannot and will not be on the earth to be exposed to it.

The 'Blessed Hope' is the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

"It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

The blessed hope of all believers then should be our watching and anticipation of the Lord's promise to appear and gather His church. Those who insist that the church will be gather during or after God's wrath are not watching for the blessed hope, but to go through God's wrath. which would be no blessed hope at all.

When the Lord appears, all believers who have died in Him will resurrect. Immediately following that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At this point the entire church from beginning to end will be present and according to His promise, will be taken back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

Total lunacy.

Plymouth or Exclusive or Closed Brethren are genuine Christian believers, even though they are distinct from other evangelical and fundamentalist Christians. Got Questions has an article on them, and here is what they say:

Who are the Plymouth Brethren, and what do they believe?
'...Brethren churches vary somewhat in their practices and beliefs due to their independent nature, but there are a number of things that would characterize most of them. The recognition of all believers as part of the body of Christ and the priesthood of all believers are key starting points. Other important distinctives are the plurality of overseers and the absence of clergy/laity distinctions in the body. Though Brethren churches do not hire salaried pastors, they do recognize that certain men have been gifted for leadership ministry within the church. Brethren churches typically partake of the Lord’s Supper weekly. Most Brethren churches are also pre-tribulational and dispensational...

You are correct in that they hold to household baptism, rather than believer's baptism (which resembles Anglican beliefs). But their Gospel teaching corresponds to the Scripture are seen here in Harry Ironside's article Great Words of the Gospel: http://plymouthbrethren.org/series/6449

• Preface
• Chapter 1: Regeneration
• Chapter 2: Redemption
• Chapter 3: Substitution
• Chapter 4: Justification
• Chapter Five: Sanctification
• Chapter 6: Intercession
• Chapter 7: Resurrection
• Chapter 8: Expectation
• Chapter 9: Manifestation
• Chapter 10: Glorification

If you are claiming that Christians since 30 AD have never died physically but have all been Raptured, you should know that that is absurd. There are Christian funerals being held daily all across the world.

Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture DO NOT TEACH that any believer is excluded. Those who died in Christ are presently in Heaven (their souls and spirits). At the Resurrection/Rapture, all those saints will receive glorified bodies. But the ones who are alive at the time of the Rapture will be totally transformed, perfected, and also receive glorified bodies. So no one is excluded.

So if you think this is heresy, obviously you have ignored all the Scriptures which teach this truth. Let's take the example of Stephen who was martyred almost immediately after Pentecost. His soul and spirit went directly to be with Christ in Heaven, while his body was interred in the grave (Acts 7,8). So when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture, He will bring with Him Stephen (and every saint who died) and they will all receive glorious resurrected bodies.

You are aligning two distinct things (conflating them)... these ^ that you speak of are not what takes place at the GWTj.

Consider the following (as I've posted on before):

the following two passages correspond with each other... Please examine these texts carefully and compare:

--Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [not "our Rapture"]), CORRESPONDING TO THAT OF...

--the FIRST [*1] of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]



[then a "time-period" is said to intervene (see the Isaiah passage) before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words of that passage is carried out... thus...]



--the SECOND [*2] of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], CORRESPONDING TO THAT OF...

--Revelation 20:11-15 (the GWTj--pertaining to "the DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times, including the point of Christ's "RETURN" to the earth... [and also any who later DIE in the MK age])



Below, I will quote the Isaiah 24:21-22[23] passage for your convenience (plz compare with the specific Rev scriptures I named at top):


21 In that day the LORD WILL PUNISH [*1]

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below [/and the kings of the earth upon the earth].

22 They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit.

[see Rev20:1-3a "pit" re: "serpent/Devil/Satan" for the "time-period" which later in the passage is called "his prison" v.7; see also where "pit" in some OT passages is comparable to where those persons who DIE go to (i.e. DEATH/the GRAVE... I made a post on that, won't put it here, for length) so see again Rev19:21a (at top) "and the remnant were SLAIN..." (i.e. DEATH)]

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days [/and after many days shall they BE PUNISHED". [*2]

23 The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory.


Matthew 24-25 (His Olivet Discourse) and the passage upon which their Q of Him in v.3 was BASED (i.e. that which He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]" [NOT "the end of the WORLD"], and His response to that Q in both chpts (24-25), ALL of these passages are speaking of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" there (to the earth)... and covers also the time period immediately preceding that and which LEADS UP TO that point in time (so, the 7 trib yrs... and being passages telling of things which FOLLOW "our Rapture"... Jesus is NOT covering the Subject of "our Rapture" at all, in these passages [Olivet Discourse, Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, etc...]; at the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse [and INCLUDING it], He had NOT YET SPOKEN anything regarding "our Rapture," but was speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom," which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19).




Hope this helps you see my perspective. = )

The two women grinding is no thorn as you falsely claim.

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is devoted to the second coming of Jesus Christ and the "End Of This World"

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

You bet the sheep/goats in Matthew 25 matches the great white throne judgement, because its a parable of it

Those preaching the false gospel of dispensationalism teach the sheep/goats is a judgement to enter a 1,000 year mortal kingdom on earth?

A Big Pinocchio Fairy Tale!

What is it in either of these two passages (meaning, its RELATED passage of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, upon which their LATER Q of Him in 24:3 was based--and His response being in two chpts) makes you believe that this is the "GWTj"?

No one is being "resurrected" in either Matt25:31-34's context, nor in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50's context... but we see "the DEAD" stand before the "GWTj," where it says, "the sea gave up the dead... and death and hell delivered up the dead...". What in Matt25:31-42 makes you think of this kind of scene?



[for the readers: the "Sheep [of the nationS]" and the "goats [of the nationS]" of Matt25:31-end, are both DISTINCT from "the least of these My brethren" in vv.40,45, who are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in this context ]

Your claim is false again, there is no mortal Millennial Kingdom Seen, None!

Matthew 25 sheep/goats judgement is nothing more than a "Parable" of the Great White Throne judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15

As is clearly seen in Matthew 25:46 the final judgement takes place, as the wicked are judged to everlasting punishment, and the righteous enter eternal life, in the "ETERNAL KINGDOM"!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So you are pointing out the CONTRAST between the above two "destination places" (within the SAME verse, and SAME context).

How do you see it that ^ differently than, say, the following verse and its CONTRAST? :

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee TO ENTER INTO LIFE maimed, than having two hands TO GO INTO HELL, into the fire that never shall be quenched:" (as one of several related examples of this).



[surely you see the phrase "TO ENTER INTO LIFE" to be of the "eternally-lasting sort," right?? (1Jn5:9-12)]

...and by the way, I too see the "kingdom" as being "eternal"... It's just that the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom is pretty much the first 1000 yrs of it, so to speak. = ) (not that the "earth" is the ONLY aspect of it [existing] during the MK, but that the "earthly MK" aspect of it is indeed "on the earth" lol--Daniel 7:27 [following the specific time-period of verse 25], "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven..." [not speaking of that which is "UP IN Heaven" here])