Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[TheDivineWatermark]

especially in light of the history behind Pre-trib gaining a critical mass in the United States.

TBH, this sounds like you are merely REPEATING what you've HEARD (i.e. falsehoods on the Subject, that have long been debunked).

Hate to say it (and I do say it in love), but that's how your words are coming across... in the very way you are exhorting others NOT to do.

Your words are merely evidencing a lack of real study (scriptural study, I mean)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I was quoting "Absolutely". No matter...

Right, I realize you were... but I was referring to how I had addressed your very point (about which you were discussing with "Abs"), so in my response to your post now (before this one ^ ), I was endeavoring to point back to and remind you of that... meaning, the issue of your conflating the definitions of "resurrection [or, rise]" and "rapture"... to the point of your Question, as to pre-or-post impacting , if that makes sense.

Because, I had made the point regarding how the text states "the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. THEN [epeita ('only then')] we which are alive and remain unto... shall be CAUGHT UP [SNATCHED away] TOGETHER WITH THEM [*when* they are caught up, at the SAME TIME]...".

So, by my quoting your post to address it, knowing you were answering "Abs" post, I was just reiterating what my previous post was pointing out, how at the time you had been conflating the two distinct words (to mean the same thing).
= )

 

[Nehemiah6]

Plymouth Brethren was a cult, and John Nelson Darby was a cult leader.

Bearing FALSE WITNESS against genuine Christians is a sin. Repent and seek the truth.

Your remark shows either (1) ignorance, or (2) bias, or (3) hatred for the truth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It does on a certain level, in that many people go to church and look to their left...and look to their right...and decide to believe/do whatever everybody else is doing.

@acts5_29 , So what are your thoughts on what I'd put in the middle of that Post #545 (quoting it again here):

[quoting] "[...] WHEAT is "harvested" by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)--I believe Scripture itself shows us that "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (compare Rev14:4 with Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"--this being the SECOND use of "firstfruit" in Lev23); but see a DISTINCT "harvest" altogether takes place by means of "tossing it into the air" (this one being PRIOR TO the other, see [note again Lev23 and its TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" mentions])"

[... and at the end of that post... to that ^ point] "[see also the word "thresh [H2251 'beat out']" in the Isaiah 27:12-13 passage I've been pointing out as parallel to Matt24:29-31 (context: NOT "our Rapture [in the air]" event )]"

[end quoting]


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Thoughts on that? ^

[keeping in mind, James 1:18 "A KIND [G5100 - tis - 'a certain kind'] of firstfruit"... because there is more than ONE "harvest" in Scripture and in nature]

 

[cv5]

@acts5_29 , So what are your thoughts on what I'd put in the middle of that Post #545 (quoting it again here):

[quoting] "[...] WHEAT is "harvested" by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)--I believe Scripture itself shows us that "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest (compare Rev14:4 with Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"--this being the SECOND use of "firstfruit" in Lev23); but see a DISTINCT "harvest" altogether takes place by means of "tossing it into the air" (this one being PRIOR TO the other, see [note again Lev23 and its TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" mentions])"

[... and at the end of that post... to that ^ point] "[see also the word "thresh [H2251 'beat out']" in the Isaiah 27:12-13 passage I've been pointing out as parallel to Matt24:29-31 (context: NOT "our Rapture [in the air]" event )]"

[end quoting]


_______

Thoughts on that? ^

[keeping in mind, James 1:18 "A KIND [G5100 - tis - 'a certain kind'] of firstfruit"... because there is more than ONE "harvest" in Scripture and in nature]

One thing that comes to mind is that there are 50 days in between the two firstfruits in Leviticus.
Therefore maintaining the concept of multiple stages of the rapture.

 

[cv5]

1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

One thing that comes to mind is that there are 50 days in between the two firstfruits in Leviticus.
Therefore maintaining the concept of multiple stages of the rapture.

Well, the only thing I would put differently (to what you've put) is that there are multiple stages of "resurrection" (not "Rapture," which happens at ONE POINT IN TIME only, and pertaining SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods).

Or multiple "HARVESTS," as we see in scripture (and in nature). With the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, speaking of TWO DISTINCT "harvests" (and at distinct points in time, and in distinct "methods" of harvesting).

 

[cv5]

Well, the only thing I would put differently (to what you've put) is that there are multiple stages of "resurrection" (not "Rapture," which happens at ONE POINT IN TIME only, and pertaining SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods).

Or multiple "HARVESTS," as we see in scripture (and in nature). With the TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, speaking of TWO DISTINCT "harvests" (and at distinct points in time, and in distinct "methods" of harvesting).

Correct. Sorry my bad. What I meant to say was another stage of harvest of the first resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, and I am pointing out, that "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the WHEAT harvest... (a distinct HARVEST)... meaning, they are not "firstfruit" of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" so that they (the 144,000) are harvested (so to speak) before the REST OF *US*[/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY], as some suggest.

I'm pointing out the TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" of Lev23... with "the 144,000" being connected with the Lev23:17 "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (when you compare the rest of v.17 with that of Rev14:4). But distinct "harvests" is my point there. = )



[for the readers: see again what the "24 elders" say of themselves in Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US... out of [ek] every kindred..." (and BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened/it's opened at the START of the trib yrs, so BEFORE that)]

 

[Runningman]

Did I ever adopt a particular camp?

Yes, Jesus' detail about "two women will be working on a handmill, and one will be taken away" is a thorn in the side of the post-trib camp. However, the pre-trib camp also has a thorn in their side: if I Thessalonians says the dead will be raised first--physically, at the Second Coming, and the dead walk on the earth--then how can this pre-trib Rapture of the living happen AFTER that? Pre-trib is pretty adamant that the living are Raptured first--not second. Unless you adopt a figurative standpoint that the dead are Raptured by...well...dying?

I don't think that's a thorn in the side of the post-trib camp. The bit about people in the field being taken and others left behind is in context of the second coming of Christ which is when the Bible says is also when the rapture happens and the dead are resurrected.

In order to make pre-trib doctrine work Christ has to come in phases or numerous times for people to be raptured and then a final coming at the end of the world when the resurrection is said to occur, a clear contradiction to scripture which says Christ returns once which is after the tribulation.

If something doesn't line up in someone's beliefs then it's time to take an honest look in the mirror and dive into the Bible not bullheadedly stick to our denominational loyalties. We must work under the assumption the Bible is not in any error and that if we find scripture that counters our deeply held beliefs then it is our understanding that is in error.

Pre-trib is one of those fairly new doctrines. It sounds nice and is attractive because it sounds a lot better than having to go through the chaos, destruction, war, famine, and death of the tribulation.

1 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

or numerous times for people to be raptured

For the record, I disagree with "Abs" viewpoint that there will be "multiple raptures" ("rapture [caught-away / SNATCH]" does not mean "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]")... I believe there is ONLY ONE "Rapture" (and that it pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")... and which I endeavored to provide elaboration in my Post #545.

Again, just FTR.

 

[Runningman]

For the record, I disagree with "Abs" viewpoint that there will be "multiple raptures" ("rapture [caught-away / SNATCH]" does not mean "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]")... I believe there is ONLY ONE "Rapture" (and that it pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")... and which I endeavored to provide elaboration in my Post #545.

Again, just FTR.

I agree with you on that much then.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I agree with you on that much then.

It's good we are finding some agreement [only ONE "rapture [/SNATCH / 'caught up' / harpazo]" at ONE point in time].

It's doubtful you agree with what I put at Post #545, however. = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul goes out of his way to say the dead are resurrected before the living are raptured. You have to do some serious finnagling of the timeline and word-mincing to make that work.

I'm not sure what you are seeing is a problem ^ (or a problem in what I've been saying...??)




Paul is saying that "the dead *in* Christ shall rise [/be resurrected] FIRST: THEN [epeita] we which are ALIVE and remain [coz we are not 'in the graves' like the dead in Christ are, lol] unto..." ...then Paul finishes out the sentence by saying we'll be "CAUGHT UP [SNATCHED away / raptured / harpazo'd] TOGETHER [at the SAME TIME that they will be "caught up"] with [in 'union-with'] them in the clouds [the destination point for both of these, together AS ONE / the ONE BODY] TO/UNTO the meeting [noun] of the Lord [He "descends" to THAT location UP THERE in the clouds, where WE GO UP TO, together with the dead in Christ who "rise" from the graves first, to stand where we will be... before we're 'CAUGHT UP TOGETHER' ] IN THE AIR"

Paul goes out of his way to say the dead are resurrected before the living are raptured [TOGETHER WITH THEM, AT THE SAME TIME that THEY are "raptured/caught-up/SNATCHED/harpazo'd"... i.e. together "AS ONE" the "ONE BODY"].

Fixed it. = )

 

[Runningman]

It's good we are finding some agreement [only ONE "rapture [/SNATCH / 'caught up' / harpazo]" at ONE point in time].

It's doubtful you agree with what I put at Post #545, however. = )

The main point I think we are in disagreement on is specifically when the rapture happens. Aside from one person's view that Christ returns multiple times, the main disagreement has been a matter of when. We agree that a great tribulation occurs, a rapture happens, deceased are resurrected too, and that Christ returns. The specific order of events is what we mainly disagree on.

I'm at the point where I have just accepted that there are those who won't see things the way some people believe the Bible presents itself and I guess that is okay, but it's still worth the discussion.

This probably won't be the last time a thread like this appears here in these forums and I generally avoid them, but I when the OP (original poster) says that those who preach a post tribulation are ministers of Satan then I feel strongly convicted to defend the Bible. Maybe posts shouldn't be so inflammatory. I prefer a level-headed scholary approach to discussion.

 

[cv5]

For the record, I disagree with "Abs" viewpoint that there will be "multiple raptures" ("rapture [caught-away / SNATCH]" does not mean "resurrection ['to stand again' on the earth]")... I believe there is ONLY ONE "Rapture" (and that it pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")... and which I endeavored to provide elaboration in my Post #545.

Again, just FTR.

I have to say there is some question about the exact nature of the resurrection of the 144,000 and the tribulation Saints. We don't know if some of them will still be alive when they these resurrections occur, or even if these groups are raised all at once though in their respective categories and order. If some are indeed alive who is to say that these groups are not therefore snatched up in a manner similar to the Church? I will have to do some review of relevant Scriptures later on this evening.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I have to say there is some question about the exact nature of the resurrection of the 144,000 and the tribulation Saints. We don't know if some of them will still be alive when they these resurrections occur, or even if these groups are raised all at once though in their respective categories and order. If some are indeed alive who is to say that these groups are not therefore snatched up in a manner similar to the Church? I will have to do some review of relevant Scriptures later on this evening.

Yeah, let me just say, I don't think the word "harvest" necessarily [always] implies [only] the idea of "resurrection" [from the dead]. Does that make sense?

For example, in the Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 parable, about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" yet future,... see esp vv.30,39,41 [where the words "harvest" and "gather" are used of what the "reapers / angels" will do], I believe the CONTEXT is primarily speaking of "still-living persons" (as opposed to "resurrected" persons) at the time-slot being spoken of.

My view is that "the 144,000" aren't going to be "killed" or "die"... and that despite what it may sound like in Rev14:3-4, I do not believe the passage is saying they will be anywhere else except on the earth (as "still-living" persons, at the time being referred to in that passage).

So like in the Matthew 13 passage, it is a "harvest" not because ppl are necessarily being "resurrected," but that the "REAPERS" (in the case of Matt13) are (at THAT time) "gather[ing] OUT all things that offend" [like, "gather ye FIRST the TARES"]... but "the righteous" (in that context) aren't being lifted AWAY FROM the earth, they are not being "relocated [/removed] entirely" like "OFF from the earth" in this context... but into the earthly MK age, so to speak [which is what the "My barn" speaks to, as I see it] (so this is neither a "resurrection," NOR a "rapture/departure"... but it IS a "harvest" nonetheless). Make sense??

So, I'm just pointing out the TWO distinct "firstfruit" references in Lev23... and the fact that there is more than just ONE "harvest" (which speaks more to TIMING and MANNER OF harvest [whether via "tossing it up into the air," or via "tribulum" and "threshing", than it does to the other issues ['dead' or 'alive'], if that makes sense).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Again, I've shown many passages (and there are more) that are showing "still-living saints" who will ENTER the MK age (in their mortal bodies)... that is, after the trib yrs, at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19


[Daniel 12:12's "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days" is just one of the ones I've pointed out, for example]

 

[KJV1611]

"My question is whether Jesus was wrong, or Paul was wrong or are the rapture heresy believers wrong?"
The obvious answer is that YOU are wrong. Paul is talking about their dead bodies, their corpses.
Though they may be dust, their dead bodies shall rise and be glorified. The spirits of the Saints who have died are immediately ushered into the presence of the Lord ("dead IN CHRIST"), but evidently there needs to be another transformational phase to a glorified body fit for heaven and earth. Which fits the Scripture perfectly as it stays very clearly that we will be eventually glorified. What I think you are missing is the fact of the Bible is perfectly clear that our physical body is reclaimed and reconstituted and reused. It is not discarded forever.

Before I forget I must mention that Jesus was resurrected to a glorified body, Which was physical but had astounding capabilities. That is exactly how the rest of us will be resurrected when the rapture occurs. A physical body similar to Jesus after His resurrection.

I wish I had time to keep up with this thread but I have lots to do this weekend.

Here’s how the resurrection goes, according to Jesus.

Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
The context of the next few verses is the resurrection of a literal dead body, Lazarus body.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
This is the timing of the resurrection, the last day that Jesus was in the tomb.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Speaking of Lazarus, and it applies to all who died in Christ before Christ rose from the dead. Though Lazarus IS DEAD, yet he will live again.

This is speaking strictly to those who died literal physical deaths in Christ prior to His resurrection.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
This applies to those who are alive and in Christ AFTER his resurrection. Those who in Christ who are alive WILL NEVER die. Believest thou this?

 

[Nehemiah6]

This applies to those who are alive and in Christ AFTER his resurrection. Those who in Christ who are alive WILL NEVER die. Believest thou this?

Since hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of Christians have died physically after the resurrection of Christ, it should be obvious that what Christ meant is they all would have eternal life or life everlasting. Which includes the resurrection of the saints.