The false end time "7 year tribulation" doctrine

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posthuman

posthuman

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#41
Jul 31, 2013
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#41
pottersclay said:
To be frank Revelation has nothing to do with born again saints, it is the time of Jacobs trouble. The redemption of Israel and the prophecy of the man of sin .

No one points to this so I will......in the book of Daniel when the 3 are to be thrown in to the furnace ....why isn't Daniel mentioned. Why isn't he counted with the 3 ?
Could it be that Daniel was a type of the church? Jesus said my father's house is a house of prayer ...
How did Daniel escape this how is he not mentioned.
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Well I think there are many things to do with the born again saints on Revelation, especially in the first 3 chapters, and speaking of the Bride later. I think I get what mean by saying his tho.

Very interesting thought about Daniel, hmm!
 
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pottersclay

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#42
#42
posthuman said:
Well I think there are many things to do with the born again saints on Revelation, especially in the first 3 chapters, and speaking of the Bride later. I think I get what mean by saying his tho.

Very interesting thought about Daniel, hmm!
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Thought you'd like it😉😉😉😉
 
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pottersclay

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#43
#43
acts5_29 said:
You yourself cannot even think of a 7-year tribulation without thinking heavily symbolically. You have horns, 70 weeks, the weeks meaning weeks of years, all that.

The early Church read John's letter from primarily an idealist standpoint. And Revelation 1:20 explicitly says that there is symbolism in Revelation.

Do note that I am not necessarily partial preterist, nor am I taking sides. The only side I am really taking regards you being overly cock-sure about stuff, without presenting evidence particularly any more compelling than other God-fearing believers have.
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Do you really want to go there??? Seen so many threads about this topic and so many spiritualized it's writings it's not funny.
 
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acts5_29

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Apr 17, 2020
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#44
Go where? The spiritual is what it's all about. That was even true of Jesus' parables.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#45
Mar 12, 2015
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#45
acts5_29 said:
Go where? The spiritual is what it's all about. That was even true of Jesus' parables.
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Though there is symbolism in the book of Revelation, but not all information should be interpreted as such. The correct way to read Revelation is that, if the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. One of the major problems that expositors make, is that they symbolize what is meant literal.

Regarding Jesus' parables, not everything that Jesus said is a parable. And He told us why and to whom He spoke parables to:

========================================================================================

Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Why do You speak to the people in parables?”

He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:

‘Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’

In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled:

‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has grown callous;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts,

and turn, and I would heal them.’

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

======================================================================================

"The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them"

The 'You' in the verse above are the disciples as well as all who are in Christ. So, we have been given the ability to know the mysteries of things contained in God's word.

The 'them' is that generation of Israel to whom Jesus spoke the parables to. As the Lord said, He spoke in parables to them in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah.

Many attempt to use this scripture to infer that we has believers in Christ cannot know what the book of Revelation is saying because it is all symbolic, which is a lie! It is those who claim that it is symbolic who don't understand what it is saying.

God gave us the book of Revelation for the following reason:

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John

The book of Revelation then, is information about what is going to take place in the future which are the events of God's wrath and all related information, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth. These plagues of wrath will all take place upon the earth literally. If these events were all symbolic and we couldn't know what they mean, then God would be failing at showing His servants the things which must soon take place.

Preterism and Amillennialism, are two of the most destructive false teachings out there.
 
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pottersclay

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#46
#46
acts5_29 said:
Because that is what happened? That is the danger of reading in symbolism where there is none: you start reading in the stuff you want, instead of what God is actually telling you.

Probably the reason the incident doesn't mention Daniel is simple: because Daniel wasn't involved in the actual incident. Daniel had his moment later on, but this wasn't it.
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Do you really think Daniel got a pass on this? According to scripture Daniel was well known.
 
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pottersclay

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#47
#47
acts5_29 said:
Go where? The spiritual is what it's all about. That was even true of Jesus' parables.
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In the early 1900 that was thought to be true. What arose from it was anti-semitism being preached in the churches. Now you and I would have to agree that God is not finished with Israel or do you disagree?
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#48
Jun 2, 2016
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#48
pottersclay said:
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of
great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."


Well if they came out of the tribulation there musta been one.

Revelation is speaking of a world wide event referring to all nation's wouldn't you agree? Not just the Jews and Romans.
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And revelation 7:9 confirms that there were many nations clothed in white robes
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#49
Jun 2, 2016
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#49
Diakonos said:
Gabriel said 70 weeks.
שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwaʿ"week"="heptad" (a unit of 7). But the question is: A unit of 7...what? days? weeks? months? years?
Well...Moses gives us some insight in Gen 29:26-28:

"But Laban said, “It is not the practice in our place to marry off the younger before the firstborn.
"Complete the week of this one, and we will give you the other also for the service which you shall serve with me
for another seven years.” Jacob did so and completed her week, and he gave him his daughter Rachel as his wife."

Someone might object to this meaning of the word שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwa. But here's where it becomes clear that "7 years" IS the meaning of each "week" in Daniel 9:24-27:

69 x (7 years) = 483 years = 173,880 days.
We know that this timeline began on March 14, 445 BC (The "issuing of a a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" by King Artaxerxes) Neh 2:1-8.
Exactly 173,880 days after that decree, Jesus came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey, The Triumphal Entry....which fits perfectly with Gabriel's prophesy because Jesus was "cut off" (killed/crucified). In His Triumphal Entry, Christ, in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9, officially presented Himself to the nation of Israel as the Messiah. He was evidently familiar with Daniel’s prophecy when on that occasion He said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes” (Luke 19:42).

So what this tells us is that the weeks of Daniel's prophesy are units of 7 years. This means that the 70th week will be a 7-year period just like the rest.
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It is interesting that you referred to ´Jacobś¨ union to the older jewish generational daughter and the younger jewish generational daughter...

Please also remember their handmaids...Leah´s older generational (gentile) handmaid...and Rachelś younger generational (gentile) handmaid
All these, were joined to.....Israel....
The TRUE ISRAEL that is.
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#50
Jun 2, 2016
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#50
BlessedCreator said:
Are you referring to Revelation 7:14?
"I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

or are you referring to Matthew 24:21?
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mathew 24:21 is referring to the time following the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD.
(many would agree with me : https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/24-21.htm)


Revelation 7:14 is referring to the entirety of the time of Christianity which was from Christ till now and to the end, that is the great tribulation being spoken of in this verse.

"Is not the great tribulation the tribulation which those must encounter who are on the side of Christ and righteousness, and refuse to receive the mark of worldliness and sin on their heart, conscience, and life?"-Ellicott commentary on Rev 7:14
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Could you identify who is being spoken of in Revelation 14, ¨ẅho die in the LORD, from now on?¨
 
miknik5

miknik5

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Jun 2, 2016
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#51
Nehemiah6 said:
I call that DELUSIONAL. The Bible is very clear that the Great Tribulation is TOTALLY UNIQUE. It has never happened, and will never happen again. Following that awful period, there will be frightful signs in the heavens and on the earth (Rev 6:12-14) which have never occurred:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
1. there was a great earthquake;
2. and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
3. and the moon became as blood;
4. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
5. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
6. and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The stars are all there in their rightful places at the present time. But this unique time will then be followed by the Second Coming of Christ WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30)

This is a warning to the unsaved world that now -- today -- is the day of salvation, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent.
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Thank you...that is what I highlighted in his post in my first response to this poster and wanted him to answer...so that I could refer him to the very verse which you posted here ( namely 6:2) ...as well, specifically I was thinking of Revelation 8:12, which shows that a 1/3 of the heavenly lights (sun, moon, stars) will be stricken so that there will be darkness upon the world....That has not yet happened.

But he never responded to my post....
 
miknik5

miknik5

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Jun 2, 2016
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#52
acts5_29 said:
Meanwhile, the preterists are calling you delusional, pointing to Matthew 24:34, where it clearly says this generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened. Thus a future tribulation cannot be possible. You have to explain away that verse somehow, or claim that "generation" is symbolic. Except that Jesus was not really speaking in symbolism. John was symbolic in Revelation; Jesus was not.
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This generation simply means those who believed THE GOSPEL and had benefitted by HIS first coming...that IS the CHURCH age)
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#53
Jun 2, 2016
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#53
pottersclay said:
Your sadly mistaken if you think in a symbolic way. Furthermore Revelation is not idealistic thinking.
Revelation is the revealing of christ. Not some mystical spiritual book.
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Just as Revelation 1 states:


The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#54
Jun 2, 2016
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#54
pottersclay said:
To be frank Revelation has nothing to do with born again saints, it is the time of Jacobs trouble. The redemption of Israel and the prophecy of the man of sin .

No one points to this so I will......in the book of Daniel when the 3 are to be thrown in to the furnace ....why isn't Daniel mentioned. Why isn't he counted with the 3 ?
Could it be that Daniel was a type of the church? Jesus said my father's house is a house of prayer ...
How did Daniel escape this how is he not mentioned.
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I don´t agree....revelation does indeed have to do with saints...for if it didn´t then the souls under the altar would not have heard HIS RESPONSE to wait until the numbers who would be martyred as they had been is complete..
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#55
Jun 2, 2016
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#55
Nehemiah6 said:
No you do not have to explain that away, since there is a perfectly valid explanation. All one has to do is understand the meaning of "generation" in this context.

Verily I say unto you, This generation* shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Mt 24:34) In this context genea means race -- the Jews or descendants of Jacob/Israel.

Strong's Concordance (1074)
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Definition: race, family, generation
Usage: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Thayer's gives several meanings, but does not apply the correct meaning to Mt 24:34.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings fromHomer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33;Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה,Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάναὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστινἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19;Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40). [Note: this is where Mt 24:34 fits. It is a reference to the nation of Israel]

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; [Note: incorrect]

When Christ said these words He already knew that Israel (Judea) would be destroyed by the Romans and the Jews would be scattered worldwide, persecuted, and even tried to be exterminated. And until 1948 it was assumed that Israel would not ever exist again. But that has changed, and Israel will be a nation-state at the Second Coming of Christ. So had Christ said "this race of Jews" or "this nation of Israel" will not pass away till all these things be fulfilled, it would have made perfect sense.
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Please remember that CHRIST said that the men of Ninevah will stand in the judgment and condemn THIS GENERATION...this generation sir, are those who had the benefit of hearing the GOSPEL preached, having been alive at HIS FIRST coming....but, they are also the generation which will be judged more harshly...

Therefore, this generation, is this CHURCH age...those who KNOW the TRUTH, who preach THE TRUTH...and those who believe are gathered in and counted as belonging to CHRIST....but those who do not believe, are those not gathered in...but still outside and not in the ¨CITY OF REFUGE¨ which GOD has provided to all men...
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#56
Jun 2, 2016
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#56
acts5_29 said:
@Dave-L

I'm sorry, I didn't see the question? I can take a guess, and try to address that.

One thing I didn't notice for a long time is that when Jesus said not one stone would be left atop one another, that was in fact NOT part of the Olivet Discourse (unless you simply define all of Matthew 24 to be the Olivet discourse, in which case by definition, yeah...). The timeline of events:

1. Jesus and the 12 walk on the Temple Mount.
2. Jesus said "Look around, do you see all these things? …"
3. They leave and go to the Mount of Olives.
4. The disciples ask Jesus when will these things happen. When will be the end of the world?
5. Jesus gives a discourse.

Jesus never specifically said the tearing down of the second Temple either was or was not a sign of the end of the world. The disciples said that. It would be like the U.S. going down in flames, and Americans thinking that was the end of the world. Well--if you're dead, then I guess as far as you are concerned, it is.
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Can we please remember that they were marvelling at the beauty of the temple...please read the parallel accounts...and the Olivet discourse is appropriately included in Matthew 24, by HIM, for the very reason that there is a different type of ¨beauty" that we should especially remember, which HE reminds us of in this discourse...which, in the last days, many will turn away from and forget.
 
miknik5

miknik5

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#57
Jun 2, 2016
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#57
acts5_29 said:
Metaphorically. You explained it away.



Who says? You?



"would"? Why are we interested in "would"? And why not what the Bible actually said? Obviously the Bible said nothing about 1948.
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GENERATION is THE CHURCH age, sir...those who have heard and believed and been gathered up and out of the world in THE TRUE CHURCH...and those who have heard and still remain outside the door.
 
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acts5_29

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Apr 17, 2020
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#58
What I heard was that anyone who does not believe in a "literal" 7-year tribulation is delusional.

Yet translating the Greek word "genea" as "generation" seems pretty reasonable to me. At least, if you are a Bible translator, and not just someone trying to make the pieces of Revelation fit. And the arrival at a 7-year tribulation is not "literal". It takes some symbolism involved in order to arrive at that.

If the "literal" 7-year tribulation is so obvious, then there must be some slam-dunk evidence pointing to that, which blows away other people's views and reveals them to be "delusional". And I haven't seen it yet. Saying that the word "genea" translates not to "generation," but to...well...pretty much whatever you want it to mean...certainly does not constitute that.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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#59
Jan 19, 2019
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#59
miknik5 said:
It is interesting that you referred to ´Jacobś¨ union to the older jewish generational daughter and the younger jewish generational daughter...

Please also remember their handmaids...Leah´s older generational (gentile) handmaid...and Rachelś younger generational (gentile) handmaid
All these, were joined to.....Israel....
The TRUE ISRAEL that is.
Click to expand...
Right. I used this Scripture to point out the meaning of שָׁבוּעַ shâbûwaʿ"week"="heptad" (a unit of 7)...specifically a unit of seven years. Then I went on to prove that mathematically. This 7 year period is called "tribulation" by Jesus. It is called "The time of Jacob's trouble" by Jeremiah:
“‘Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he will be saved from it. ‘It shall come about on that day,’ declares the LORD of hosts, ‘that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves. ‘But they shall serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.” (Jeremiah 30:7–9)
It is called many things by other Biblical authors.
 
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