The false end time "7 year tribulation" doctrine

[Nehemiah6]

Any so-called scholar that claims that the great tribulation period has already taken place, doesn't know what he is talking about

I call that DELUSIONAL. The Bible is very clear that the Great Tribulation is TOTALLY UNIQUE. It has never happened, and will never happen again. Following that awful period, there will be frightful signs in the heavens and on the earth (Rev 6:12-14) which have never occurred:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
1. there was a great earthquake;
2. and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
3. and the moon became as blood;
4. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
5. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
6. and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The stars are all there in their rightful places at the present time. But this unique time will then be followed by the Second Coming of Christ WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30)

This is a warning to the unsaved world that now -- today -- is the day of salvation, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[acts5_29]

The problem with a post-trib, 7-year tribulation is that there is no imminency of the rapture. The rapture is supposed to take place at any moment. After a 7-year tribulation is not that.

 

[acts5_29]

I call that DELUSIONAL. The Bible is very clear that the Great Tribulation is TOTALLY UNIQUE. It has never happened, and will never happen again.

Meanwhile, the preterists are calling you delusional, pointing to Matthew 24:34, where it clearly says this generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened. Thus a future tribulation cannot be possible. You have to explain away that verse somehow, or claim that "generation" is symbolic. Except that Jesus was not really speaking in symbolism. John was symbolic in Revelation; Jesus was not.

 

[posthuman]

Mathew 24:21 is referring to

Matthew 24:21 is referring to one of the 3 questions the disciples asked Him in Matthew 24:3 -- when will these things happen, what is the sign of His coming, and what is the sign of the end of the age.

70AD was not His coming.
70AD was not the end of the age.

many would agree with me

Watch out that no one deceives you.
(Matthew 24:4)
​

many say many things. many are wrong.
if you can't find anyone who agrees with what you think scripture means, yeah you're probably in trouble.
but just because you can find someone who does agree never means you're right.

 

[posthuman]

Meanwhile, the preterists are calling you delusional, pointing to Matthew 24:34, where it clearly says this generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened. Thus a future tribulation cannot be possible. You have to explain away that verse somehow, or claim that "generation" is symbolic. Except that Jesus was not really speaking in symbolism. John was symbolic in Revelation; Jesus was not.

considering that Matthew begins with 'the generations of Jesus the Messiah' and that the gospel is the message of the redemption of an everlasting generation of people He calls out of all nations to Himself and gives eternal life, and that He immediately says His words will never pass away when He remarks that 'this generation' will not pass away without these things coming to pass, and considering that He is speaking of the end of death and the restitution of all things at His return -- it is far easier to understand how He says 'this generation' than it is to try to explain how He already returned and created a new heavens and a new earth 1,900 years ago, and to try to cram all of Revelation into the distant past.

Jesus says the great tribulation is a time worse than ever before and never will a time as terrible come again, and that unless those days were shortened there would be no flesh on all the earth that escapes it.
it's frankly idiotic IMO to ascribe this to the siege of one single city -- especially a city that had been sacked, burned, pillaged, put to the sword, starved to death, destroyed and carried into captivity more than once in the past. and had not Levites themselves in ages past filled the temple with idols?

there are 3 questions in Matthew 24. one of them is about the destruction of the temple they stood in when they inquired about these things. the other 2 are about the end of days.

 

[posthuman]

Some of the best Biblical scholars such as Ellicott and Barnes agree with me. Their commentaries are on Biblehub.

i'm sure we can also look up names of men who don't agree with you.
but what will one list or another list of names prove?

 

[posthuman]

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory.

it is pretty difficult to explain why no historian anywhere on earth records every nation on earth mourning in 70AD and every eye on the planet having seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

so... @acts5_29 preterism has a pretty big problem to deal with. a whole lot bigger problem than 'what does He mean by this generation will not pass away'?

 

[Dave-L]

A question relating to 70 AD

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Matthew 24:1–2 (KJV 1900)

More questions about other events.

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3 (KJV 1900)

The sign of his coming?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29–30 (KJV 1900)

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Matthew 24:37–41 (KJV 1900)

 

[pottersclay]

This is true, but this verse alone doesn't mean that it lasts seven years.

If you take the idealistic interpretation of Revelation, the great tribulation is simply symbolic for our time here on earth.

Your sadly mistaken if you think in a symbolic way. Furthermore Revelation is not idealistic thinking.
Revelation is the revealing of christ. Not some mystical spiritual book.

 

[pottersclay]

To be frank Revelation has nothing to do with born again saints, it is the time of Jacobs trouble. The redemption of Israel and the prophecy of the man of sin .

No one points to this so I will......in the book of Daniel when the 3 are to be thrown in to the furnace ....why isn't Daniel mentioned. Why isn't he counted with the 3 ?
Could it be that Daniel was a type of the church? Jesus said my father's house is a house of prayer ...
How did Daniel escape this how is he not mentioned.

 

[acts5_29]

it is pretty difficult to explain why no historian anywhere on earth records every nation on earth mourning in 70AD and every eye on the planet having seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds with power and great glory.

so... @acts5_29 preterism has a pretty big problem to deal with. a whole lot bigger problem than 'what does He mean by this generation will not pass away'?

This is true, full preterism has a big problem to deal with. That is why we have partial preterism--which among preterists is the majority viewpoint.

 

[acts5_29]

No one points to this so I will......in the book of Daniel when the 3 are to be thrown in to the furnace ....why isn't Daniel mentioned. Why isn't he counted with the 3 ?
Could it be that Daniel was a type of the church? .

Because that is what happened? That is the danger of reading in symbolism where there is none: you start reading in the stuff you want, instead of what God is actually telling you.

Probably the reason the incident doesn't mention Daniel is simple: because Daniel wasn't involved in the actual incident. Daniel had his moment later on, but this wasn't it.

 

[acts5_29]

Your sadly mistaken if you think in a symbolic way. Furthermore Revelation is not idealistic thinking.
Revelation is the revealing of christ. Not some mystical spiritual book.

You yourself cannot even think of a 7-year tribulation without thinking heavily symbolically. You have horns, 70 weeks, the weeks meaning weeks of years, all that.

The early Church read John's letter from primarily an idealist standpoint. And Revelation 1:20 explicitly says that there is symbolism in Revelation.

Do note that I am not necessarily partial preterist, nor am I taking sides. The only side I am really taking regards you being overly cock-sure about stuff, without presenting evidence particularly any more compelling than other God-fearing believers have.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I call that DELUSIONAL. The Bible is very clear that the Great Tribulation is TOTALLY UNIQUE. It has never happened, and will never happen again. Following that awful period, there will be frightful signs in the heavens and on the earth (Rev 6:12-14) which have never occurred:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
1. there was a great earthquake;
2. and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
3. and the moon became as blood;
4. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
5. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
6. and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The stars are all there in their rightful places at the present time. But this unique time will then be followed by the Second Coming of Christ WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30)

This is a warning to the unsaved world that now -- today -- is the day of salvation, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent.

Totally agree! With the scriptural information that we have, it is ridiculous to even entertain the idea of the great tribulation having already taken place.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Meanwhile, the preterists are calling you delusional, pointing to Matthew 24:34, where it clearly says this generation shall not pass away until all these things have happened. Thus a future tribulation cannot be possible. You have to explain away that verse somehow, or claim that "generation" is symbolic.

No you do not have to explain that away, since there is a perfectly valid explanation. All one has to do is understand the meaning of "generation" in this context.

Verily I say unto you, This generation* shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. (Mt 24:34) In this context genea means race -- the Jews or descendants of Jacob/Israel.

Strong's Concordance (1074)
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Definition: race, family, generation
Usage: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time.

Thayer's gives several meanings, but does not apply the correct meaning to Mt 24:34.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά

γενεά, γενεάς, ἡ (ΓΑΝΩ, γίνομαι (crf. Curtius, p. 610)); the Sept. often for דּור; in Greek writings fromHomer down;

1. a begetting, birth, nativity: Herodotus 3, 33;Xenophon, Cyril 1, 2, 8, etc.; (others make the collective sense the primary significance, see Curtius as above).

2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
a. properly, as early as Homer; equivalent to מִשְׁפָּחַה,Genesis 31:3, etc. σῴζειν Ρ᾽αχαβην καί τήν γενεάναὐτῆς, Josephus, Antiquities 5, 1, 5. the several ranks in a natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy: Matthew 1:17 (ἑβδόμῃ γενεά οὗτος ἐστινἀπό τοῦ πρώτου, Philo, vit. Moys. i. § 2).

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19;Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40). [Note: this is where Mt 24:34 fits. It is a reference to the nation of Israel]

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; [Note: incorrect]

When Christ said these words He already knew that Israel (Judea) would be destroyed by the Romans and the Jews would be scattered worldwide, persecuted, and even tried to be exterminated. And until 1948 it was assumed that Israel would not ever exist again. But that has changed, and Israel will be a nation-state at the Second Coming of Christ. So had Christ said "this race of Jews" or "this nation of Israel" will not pass away till all these things be fulfilled, it would have made perfect sense.

 

[acts5_29]

A question relating to 70 AD

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” Matthew 24:1–2 (KJV 1900)

More questions about other events.

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Matthew 24:3 (KJV 1900)

The sign of his coming?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Matthew 24:29–30 (KJV 1900)

“But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” Matthew 24:37–41 (KJV 1900)

@Dave-L

I'm sorry, I didn't see the question? I can take a guess, and try to address that.

One thing I didn't notice for a long time is that when Jesus said not one stone would be left atop one another, that was in fact NOT part of the Olivet Discourse (unless you simply define all of Matthew 24 to be the Olivet discourse, in which case by definition, yeah...). The timeline of events:

1. Jesus and the 12 walk on the Temple Mount.
2. Jesus said "Look around, do you see all these things? …"
3. They leave and go to the Mount of Olives.
4. The disciples ask Jesus when will these things happen. When will be the end of the world?
5. Jesus gives a discourse.

Jesus never specifically said the tearing down of the second Temple either was or was not a sign of the end of the world. The disciples said that. It would be like the U.S. going down in flames, and Americans thinking that was the end of the world. Well--if you're dead, then I guess as far as you are concerned, it is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let's examine scripture.

The seven year tribulation doctrine does NOT come from the following verse.

Revelation 7:14
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of
great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That verse is speaking of the tribulation of all saints, of all ages that have been martyred for their faith.
But it is also, more specifically speaking of the time when the Lord returned to destroy Jerusalem.
Jesus told us of that time when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem, that "for then
shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So we see that those verses are not speaking of any end time tribulation period.

It is not speaking of 70 AD. Not sure where you got this, But it is wrong.

The other verses that people refer to and try to make a point that there will be some end time 7 year tribulation
period is in Daniel 9:24-27
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore
and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built
again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of
the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the
overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the
consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The people that try to preach this false 7 year tribulation doctrine try to say that these verses
are speaking of the Antichrist. When it is actually speaking
of the messiah, of Jesus Christ. These 70 weeks were fulfilled during Christ's ministry. He fulfilled this
prophecy! Don't believe me? Just read commentaries on BibleHub on Daniel 9:27 and you will see.

Its Not jesus,
1. Jesus does not confirm a 7 year covenant, He confirms an eternal covenant
2. Jesus does not commit an abomination which causes desolation. in fact. He speaks of this in Dan 7, and says when you see it run.
3. Bible hub? lol Your joking right? How about just readinig the passage and studying it

Some try to say that the desolation of the temple from Matthew 24:15,
is what is referred to in the above scriptures of Daniel as
"the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
These are two different events. The desolation of the temple in Matthew is referring to
the desecration of the sanctuary by the mad attempt of Antiochus Epiphanes to
stop the "daily sacrifice," and to substitute an idolatrous worship in its place.

The scripture in Daniel is referring to when Christ, in the MIDST of the week, offered
his own body, that great sacrifice for the expiation of sin, to reconcile sinners to
God; by that most holy and acceptable victim, he completed and
abolished all the typical sacrifices of the law.

WHAT? who have you been listening too?

1. Jesus did not die in the middle of the week. He died at the END of the 69th week
2. Jesus did not defile the temple with an abominable thing (an idol)

you need to try to study a little more man.

There is no end time 7 year tribulation period.

Your right, there is 3.5 years of GREAT tribulation.

But there is a 7 year period yet future which has yet to be fulfilled

 

[acts5_29]

No you do not have to explain that away, since there is a perfectly valid explanation. All one has to do is understand the meaning of "generation" in this context.

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19;Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40). [Note: this is where Mt 24:34 fits. It is a reference to the nation of Israel]

Metaphorically. You explained it away.

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; [Note: incorrect]

Who says? You?

When Christ said these words He already knew that Israel (Judea) would be destroyed by the Romans and the Jews would be scattered worldwide, persecuted, and even tried to be exterminated. And until 1948 it was assumed that Israel would not ever exist again. But that has changed, and Israel will be a nation-state at the Second Coming of Christ. So had Christ said "this race of Jews" or "this nation of Israel" will not pass away till all these things be fulfilled, it would have made perfect sense.

"would"? Why are we interested in "would"? And why not what the Bible actually said? Obviously the Bible said nothing about 1948.

 

[Dave-L]

@Dave-L

I'm sorry, I didn't see the question? I can take a guess, and try to address that.

One thing I didn't notice for a long time is that when Jesus said not one stone would be left atop one another, that was in fact NOT part of the Olivet Discourse (unless you simply define all of Matthew 24 to be the Olivet discourse, in which case by definition, yeah...). The timeline of events:

1. Jesus and the 12 walk on the Temple Mount.
2. Jesus said "Look around, do you see all these things? …"
3. They leave and go to the Mount of Olives.
4. The disciples ask Jesus when will these things happen. When will be the end of the world?
5. Jesus gives a discourse.

Jesus never specifically said the tearing down of the second Temple either was or was not a sign of the end of the world. The disciples said that. It would be like the U.S. going down in flames, and Americans thinking that was the end of the world. Well--if you're dead, then I guess as far as you are concerned, it is.

The Temple related to 70AD. The rest of his answers related to things near the end of the world as I understand it.

 

[miknik5]

Let's examine scripture.

The seven year tribulation doctrine does NOT come from the following verse.

Revelation 7:14
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of
great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

That verse is speaking of the tribulation of all saints, of all ages that have been martyred for their faith.
But it is also, more specifically speaking of the time when the Lord returned to destroy Jerusalem.
Jesus told us of that time when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem, that "for then
shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So we see that those verses are not speaking of any end time tribulation period.

The other verses that people refer to and try to make a point that there will be some end time 7 year tribulation
period is in Daniel 9:24-27
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and
to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting
righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore
and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built
again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall
Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall
destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of
the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in
the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the
overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the
consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The people that try to preach this false 7 year tribulation doctrine try to say that these verses
are speaking of the Antichrist. When it is actually speaking
of the messiah, of Jesus Christ. These 70 weeks were fulfilled during Christ's ministry. He fulfilled this
prophecy! Don't believe me? Just read commentaries on BibleHub on Daniel 9:27 and you will see.

Some try to say that the desolation of the temple from Matthew 24:15,
is what is referred to in the above scriptures of Daniel as
"the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease".
These are two different events. The desolation of the temple in Matthew is referring to
the desecration of the sanctuary by the mad attempt of Antiochus Epiphanes to
stop the "daily sacrifice," and to substitute an idolatrous worship in its place.

The scripture in Daniel is referring to when Christ, in the MIDST of the week, offered
his own body, that great sacrifice for the expiation of sin, to reconcile sinners to
God; by that most holy and acceptable victim, he completed and
abolished all the typical sacrifices of the law.

There is no end time 7 year tribulation period.

I have bolded what I am going to respond to...

this, above is just Satan´s attempt at sowing in seeds of confusion....he knows what is planned...and he knows when it is planned...great to cause as many distractions as possible until that day when what will happen during the 7 yer period of tribulation (which has not yet come), actually does come