Psalm 12 under the microscope

Are you saying that the KJV is God’s words preserved for us today in the English language? I hope that is your intent.

The generation would be the generation of Christ. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.

They are tested and tried words as silver. They are perfect not lacking that which defend us. You could say tried by two perfects. One the law Deuteronomy 4:3( not to add or subtract from a word singular) .Seeing changing the meaning of a word it could effect commandments many. And the perfect as to the end of the silver mind. The warning in Revelation 22 as to the whole word . Both working as one to protect the integrity of it.

I am well aware of your hatred of the NIV, but I am not making any claim to its validity as a translation in its entirety. I merely used it to provide a modern-English version of the Psalm and made some comments relevant to its rendering of Psalm 12.

I am not attacking the doctrine of divine preservation. Rather, I am addressing the claim that verse 6 refers to the KJV and the frequent misquotation of verse 7.

Your claim that verses 6 and 7 are intentionally disjointed is nothing more than opinion, with which I strongly disagree. It's too convenient to your cause, and the reference to His words in verse 5 makes far more sense to me. Verse 5 clearly states, in God's own words, "I will... set him [the poor and needy] in safety...", and verse 7 connects logically to that "him". There is no textual variant here, so the difference (them, him, us) is entirely one of interpretation.

Garee, please read the entire thread before responding further.

The disjoint is that the NIV leads one to think that simply because they believe that the LORD will preserve them regardless to whether or not what they believe about him is true or not whereas the KJV avers to his words being the 'them' that he shall preserve.

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times .Ps 12:6-7

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Ps 12:7

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-17

John 17:8

If you're responding to the portion of my post that you quoted, your argument is flawed, because you start with a statement about the NIV. You can't make an argument in favour of the KJV merely by claiming something about another translation. The KJV by itself seems disjointed.

The KJV does not "aver" to "them" meaning "His words". That's an interpretation, and is at the root of this discussion. If you're trying to make that the basis of your claim, your reasoning is circular.

Further, you've completely overlooked the words, "from this generation"... like almost everyone else who comments on the verse. Either God promises to preserve His words "from this generation," or He promises to preserve some people "from this generation."

I have read it. The generation would be the generation of Christ. The forever generation. The generation of faith. The righteous born again generation .Not the corrupted generation of Adam as in all die.

You had better read it again, because you have conflated the generation of Christ with the generation of the wicked. Your comments are completely off the mark.

If you were correct, then God has promised to preserve His word FROM the generation of Christ. That would be wacky.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;"

"The LORD knows the thoughts of man, that they are vain."

No it is not opinion. It is the logical and spiritual conclusion based upon the context. There is absolutely no connection between the wickedness of mankind and the perfect of the Word of God.

Yes. For all intents are purposes that is correct. Which does not mean that it is inspired, but it does mean that it is a careful and faithful word-for-word English translation which has stood the test of time for over 400 years.

It's true that the word of God is set apart from the wickedness of man, but using that as an explanation for the disjoint in Psalm 12 is grasping at straws. I don't agree with your opinion.

I see the whole psalm about the wicked and vile words of man compared to the pure words of God. That’s pretty much the overall theme of every psalm.

The generation of the wicked is the evil generation. The generation of Adam unconverted mankind.

Yes, from the generation of Christ those under the defense of the armor of God , the faith we protect with all our heart soul and mind. . . To the same generation of Christ .Faith to faith . The imputed righteousness generation.

... which has nothing whatsoever to do with Psalm 12.

Please try to stay relevant to the thread topic.

Dino:

The phrase "from this generation" is not in a sense like you would keep something from someone; rather, it indicates a beginning mark in time.

The phrase "from this generation for ever" is in the sense of "from now until" - from starting point to ever-after.

Using the former idea, the words "preserve from" would not make proper sense. Using this idea, you can "protect from" something, but you cannot "preserve from" something.

That idea is built into the definition of the word - along with the time element also; however, you would not (grammatically) put the two words 'preserve' and 'from' together to formulate that idea. It would be somewhat redundant to do so.

While you make an interest point, I disagree with the reasoning you provide. The suggestion that "from this generation forever" means "from this time forward until forever" and not "from the destructive influence of this generation forever" does not connect logically to any other part of the psalm. Further, your claim that one cannot "preserve from" is simply incorrect. The word itself implies "from destruction".

This is why I like the NASB.

It's very clear.

You, O Lord , will keep them; You will preserve him from this generation forever.
Psalms 12:7 NASB

You will keep this person of need from this generation of wicked men who strut around because vileness prevails.

It helps to remember there originally weren't numbered verses, and all passages were a part of a complete statement.

Loaded question!

I did read it, and I'll add that it is quite legitimate to use "from" with "preserve" when identifying a specific risk or cause. When someone preserves garden produce, they preserve from mould, bacteria, and oxygen.