That Hebrews 10v26 Thread

Thank you Chris I was about to make a post to you saying that we will probably need to agree to disagree about v26-27, but please understand that I say that knowing how difficult some of the book Hebrews is to properly exegete (and that for several important reasons). I guess I am saying that while I strongly believe what I do about that passage, and I can give you many more reasons why I do, my mind is not closed to a different understanding of it.

While I try my best to look at Hebrews from the POV in which it was written (to Jews and/or Jewish Christians in the 1st Century), I have come to the conclusion that a proper understanding cannot be reached in a vacuum, that what it says must always be understood in the context of the rest of the Scriptures, both OT and New.

It would be helpful if 1. we knew who the author was and 2. if some of the terminology in the most controversial passages (like Hebrews 6:4-6) was regularly used elsewhere in the Bible (especially by the author, but this may be his only book).

So again, I am content to agree to disagree for now, and it sounds like you are too (though I hope you don't mind if I press what I believe a bit more in the future, if I think I need to do so, that is ).

Thanks brother, and God bless you in your studies.

~Deut

Deut, it reminds me about Ephesians 4 building up the church:
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Hebrews was written by Paul (I believe) because he references Timothy, and the rest of the saints in Italy send their greetings:

Hebrews 13
23 Know that our brother Timothy has been set free, with whom I shall see you if he comes shortly.
24 Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

Now what can we deduce from this? We know that Timothy understudied Paul and travelled with Paul. We also know from the Book of Acts that Pauls final destination was Rome (Italy). Therefore my conclusion is that Hebrews was the Final Letter written by Paul to those brethren back in Judea (Jerusalem). Paul died in Rome.

Therefore Hebrews is no different to any other letter that Paul wrote, except in my opinion it was probably one of the Greatest books in the bible (of his letters). It was the culmination of Paul's life's work. The save the best for last rendition. And it, together with the book of Romans has to be the pinnacle of his writings. It is very much applicable to the church (the Jews were the church ) and it is applicable to us too.

1st some Mosaic law background:

The once a year, Day of Atonement, sin sacrifices. Only "COVERED" sin & only for one year.

Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
(NOTE: One goat is killed for a sin offering)

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(NOTE: Once per yr & only the High Priest could: Confess ALL of Israel's, transgressions/sins, and by visibly placing them onto the head of the wilderness sacrifice. The people could SEE their sins being carried away)

BTW: During the year anyone could bring a sin offering to the Temple. The Priest would inspect the animal for blemishes (he knew why you were there & didn't ask what you'd done). You then placed your hands firmly on the sacrifices head, confessed your sin to God, imputing/transferring your sins onto the innocent/sinless sacrifice, then you took the knife & killed the offering!

If you will start at the beginning of chapter 10. You will understand, these people were still bringing sin sacrifices to the Temple. This was like spitting on Christ's Once For All Sin Sacrifice.

You really should read & REREAD verse's 10-12-14-18

Hebrews 10:
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(NOTE: ALL believers are sanctified =set apart for a sprcial work)

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
(NOTE: Christ sacrifice covers any confessed sin FOREVER)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
(NOTE: Christ's sacrifice perfected every bebievers sins FOREVER!)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
(NOTE: Where there is remission = FORGIVENESS of sins & iniquities. These is no need of any Temple priest or individual sacrifice.

I am sorry if I irritate some when I say that the Word of God is very straightforward and easy to understand. Just yield to the Spirit of Understanding. The Lord wants you to understand everything clearly. God is not a game show host who is trying to weed out the smarties from the dummies. I am sorry if some of you felt personally attacked by me. It was not intentional. I am primarily focused on those out there who are being led to believe that the Scriptures are hard to be understood . Erroneous doctrine is the thing that is hard to be understood. God bless.

Hi Flying Dove,

I don't see where you come to the conclusion that the Hebrew Church in Judea/Jerusalem were still bringing sin sacrifices to the Temple. I see that you have made the assertion, but this is not evidenced by anything written in Hebrews 10 or 9. What the writer of Hebrews (Paul) is explaining is the comparison between the old and the new ----- NOT that they were still performing the old. That I believe you injected into the assumptions.

Amen. One of the main reasons for the old is to facilitate comparison with the new. We still do that every Sunday in Churches today. These comparisons will always be useful to us. Nothing confusing here. Please notice how '75 underlined "Church". This was not an altar on a high hill or out in the middle of a field. This was not a Jewish Synagogue. This was a Church. Certainly Jewish people went there. Most of the Early Church was composed of Jewish people in those days. Nothing confusing here.

Yes the day of the Lord, the last day when death the letter of the law will be cast into the judgment of God and we will rise up and receive our new bodies .No more male or female, Jew nor gentile as the bride of Christ. . . all in the twinkling of the eye. The new incorruptible heavens and earth when the former things under the Sun will not be remembered or ever come to mind

Hebrews 10
10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Yes indeed! This life by faith applies to Christ1975, and Oyster, and all the rest of us who have been born again. Even the ones who are struggling and straining under the weight that their obfuscated false doctrine places upon them. We have humbled ourselves to the point where repentance is a part of our lifestyle, hence v.39 is for us. Nothing confusing here.

You're the one ignoring context. Seriously.
The context of Hebrews 9 and 10 says that forever sanctified means it doesn't have to be repeated over and over again, not that you can't lose that sanctification. You show me in context where it says 'forever' means we can not lose that sanctification and I will show you where 'forever' means it does not have to be repeated. Play your context card.

I appreciate you candour and the body of Christ needs the encouragement you bring, God bless you.

Is it possible to love Jesus and not love His way?
Jesus says no. If you love Him you will want and try to walk the way, and in the end, succeed.

It is the success that is the point, to have the loving relationship with Father Son and Holy Spirit and with His people.

John 14:23
If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.
My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 3
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
>To believe in Christ is to come to the light.
>Whoever does the truth comes to the light.
>Therefore to Believe in Christ entails Doing the Truth.
>To believe is to obey.

I don’t see it that way brother, not by comparing Scripture to Scripture. Nations are judged according to their treatment of Israel. This is not the GWTJ.

Amos 3
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

Agreed, that "the throne of His glory" is on the earth and commencing upon His return there; this is the judgment of the nations [I do tend to believe it will be individuals also being judged/separated; but this is the judgment of the nations, not "the Church which is His body," and not "the least of these My brethren" (vv.40,45) being judged/separated either].

So Matthew 25:31-34 parallels the following verse (which then parallels another passage and so forth):

Matthew 19:28 -

"And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel."

[that is in the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, which was promised to Israel; this judgment/separation has to do with who will ENTER that time period]

Who must to the first work of faith/ believing as the cause ? Seeing no man of his own volition can seek after God who has no form having no understanding as informed in Romans 3.

When those in Hebrews 6 as those have been given the better things that accompany salvation. . God will not forget those who have offered good works toward His name and not of our own selves . When we fall we are comforted and repent and do the first works of God. . . believe Him. If one refuses to repent its shows they never had the first love of God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:5

There is a simple explanation for people who walk away from God. They were never saved in the first place. God doesn't lose those he has called, ever! These people were never called, so therefore they were not saved. You have just quoted John, Jesus' talking to the disciples. But John also wrote the following words.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

I cannot judge whether someone is saved. They may seem to be on fire for God, even reading their Bibles and then just walking away. But God knows their hearts. If they do sin willfully, and know it is wrong, how are they following Christ? A relationship with God is based on him calling us, then justifying us. And we do have to obey him. Repentance is what God gives us to do. But, God is the one who calls us. We do not have the ability to call ourselves because we are dead in our sin.

"because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8;29-30

This is called the "Golden Chain of Salvation." There is no hint of losing your salvation, because you sinned or walked away. A believer can't be lost, or that makes their actions more important than our Heavenly Father. God saves us, we do not save ourselves. I never knew this truth for 25 years, because I had attended Arminian Churches. It didn't reflect my salvation experience or anything I had read in the Bible.

Then came terrible Rheumatoid Arthritis, which was painful and deforming, and I was not diagnosed properly or treated properly. I was also condemned and judged by Word Faith people because I didn't have enough "faith" to be healed. I was broken, and turned away from God. I don't mean I started sinning wantonly, I stopped my daily Bible readings, prayer, and attending church. Basically, I turned away from my wonderful relationship with God. I was hurt and angry. But somehow, I knew God was standing behind me. He wasn't going to allow me to sulk forever. After 2 years, I heard the voice of God telling me to read 5 Psalms a day. At first, I was disobedient. I didn't read the Psalms, or anything else. But God kept telling me to read 5 Psalms a day. I finally started reading 5 Psalms a day. I found real people! Hurting, rejoicing, sinning and being restored, can you say David? I read 5 Psalms a day for 2 years. That is all of the Psalms every month x 24. It was restorative to my faith. By then I was back walking with God, doing my devotions and learning more about God then I ever did in my healthy days.

In fact God called me to seminary, to get an MDiv, and then a PhD program to help people who are suffering, which is all of us, in one way or another. So, did I lose my salvation or not? I did not! God is above time, and he had plans for my life, which I followed. In fact, the rest of Romans 8, shows us that we can NOT lose our salvation, not because of what we do, but because of God's love for his people.

"31 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:31-39

This is the gospel, expanded. Paul speaks about this many times. It clearly says "Nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." NOTHING! Think on that for a while. Instead of calling saved people to repent because they have "lost" their salvation, go preach to the masses who do not have that relationship with Christ. Stop judging and condemning Christians, and instead encourage them, by posting Scriptures that show how God will never leave or forsake us. In fact, the book of Hebrews which you keep twisting says that, quoting Deut. 8:6,8:

"Your conduct must be free from the love of money and you must be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you and I will never abandon you.” Hebrews 13:5

Or Ephesians:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his creative work, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we can do them." Eph. 2:4-10

Read the whole chapter, as the first part is about how God saves our sin dead souls. There are many more verses in the Bible. You have a God who is weak, and cannot even keep his own people? You believe free will, including the will to sin and walk away, is more important than the sovereignty of God? I feel sorry you are so trapped in a wrong interpretation of this. I might try and comment later on your Hebrews passage, but this is too long already.

In fact, you are the one who does not know the attributes of God. You have made him into a weak, distant and ruthless god, who has no control over his children. Appalling, really!

Just so you do not accuse me of not having read the Bible, I have read the Bible over 50 times in 40 years. I have also read the Bible in French, Spanish and German. I have read the NT in Koine Greek and a number of books of the OT in Masoretic Hebrew. I have also studied, studied, and studied more. So you know where I am coming from.


PS I learned more in my 3 years in seminary about God and the Bible, than in the previous 26 years I did not go. My seminary was so focused on understanding the Bible, and serving Christ and God's people.

Good. Keep His commandments.

Basically, you have no right to judge me as to whether I keep God's commandments. It is between me and God. I have a relationship with God, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Because of that loving relationship, I rejoice in obeying him. I confess my sins immediately, and God is the one who reminds me to do that.

You, on the other hand, sadly, have a legalistic view of Scripture. Are you close to God? I doubt it, or you would not be judging or condemning Christians. You would want to share the real gospel with non-Christians. You would be passionate for them, instead of legalistic about one passage of the Bible, which you have improperly exegeted.

I will pray that God will open your eyes to his truth. You need to grow up, from these basic wrong ideas of theology and the Bible, and learn who Jesus is, and that he came to set us free, not bind us with fear of failure. Read the truth, by exegeting the text, instead of doing incorrect eisegesis, or reading your theology, INto (eis) the Bible, instead of taking OUT (ex) what is said. Instead of starting with what you believe, start with what the Bible says, and take out of the Bible what it is actually saying.

"So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:36

Just out of curiosity, how many times have you read the Bible, and in which languages, which translations? I find a lot of people who read the KJV often stumble in their theology, because they do not understand the grammar, or what the words mean. You have posted a few verses, but I don't remember which versions. I have read many versions in English, from ESV, Holman's, NASB and NIV. Also the paraphrases, like the Message and the NLT, which I know the Bible well enough to disagree with what is being said. Right now, I am reading the NET, because it's interesting to read the 66,000 footnotes. Although a good knowledge of Greek and Hebrew helps a lot.

Amen and Amen!