What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

Nope
The flying scorpions and hailstones of fire as well as oceans turning to blood would have been recorded.

You guys get silly trying to make that stuff fit.

Besides that rev was written around 90 ad

No matter how you slice it ,historicist view is poorly thought out.

To top it off,israel becoming a nation is a real stick in the side.

Historicist view must also reframe that no brainer as well.

You offered nothing of substance in this comment, just insults and assertions as if you are just the all knowing, and you sound ignorant. Just the way you're trying to make your case simply by name calling and mocking. Lets look at your case here, you dismiss the whole view as "silly" and "made up"from the first comment, then go on to say how poorly thought out it is, then assert that Israel existing proves your whole case.

This is an intellectual argument from a brother? Really? Look at how arrogant, insulting and dismissive your being here. It's crazy. and you made NO case and just hurled insults while patting yourself on the back for your superior knowledge, exactly how Jesus told us to treat and sharpen each other right? I rebuke this whole comment brother, I think you may want to go think harder about your own view and get back to me with a real argument with respect to represent who you say you follow better, because this is embarrassing honestly. Completely self serving and prideful with no love or ANY intellectual rigor at all. You have no room to criticize ANYONE'S argument from what I see. All I see is someone upset because their long held beliefs are being challenged and is upset and throwing a fit about it.

we don't get no second chance once we Die there is no getting right with GOD .SO shall a tree fall, so shall it lay .
Preaching to someone that is dead go against all the BIBLE teaches GOD BLESS AS HE SEES FIT .

Your using "receives" (future tense) but in Revelation 17:8 the beast that was(past tense) and is not(don't exist anymore at that time) ,,,and shall ascend(future tense) ect. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+17:8&version=KJV

So at the time Revelation was given and 17:8 was being explained to John the beast that was,is not yet is had already received it's deadly wound and the angel is explaining it would ascend out of the pit at some time after the Revelation was given/seen so it received it's wound prior to Revelation being received and ascended out of the pit afterwards in time. Your thinking it's going to receive a wound and the is saying it already had received it.

As a son of (belonging to) Satan? Of course, Rev 13 tells us that Satan gives the Beast of the Earth (Israel) powers to perform miracles. Vespasian was the 7th head of the Beast. All of the Caesars were Satanic and many were sick puppies. Did you read about the conception of Augustus? Not saying I believe a snake impregnated his mother literally, rather I think the message was that this dude was spawned by Satan. The Romans were an Imperial Cult. They worshiped the Greek Gods and considered the Caesars as gods. Much of their coinage states this. Clearly there was a lot of evil in those days and the historians of those days wrote a lot about it.

It matters less what we think and more about what they were thinking. This from Josephus:

for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

Many of them knew it was Vespasian.

My point stands apart from your charachter assasination.
Such side shows are irony of ironies as you seem to agree with such silly notions that. Plainword made up or read in some book.

Crossbows becoming flying scorpions that are commanded not to eat green vegetation or STING the 144k?

Really?

You defend that??? Then,when challenged you attack me as if i called billy Graham a bad name.

Wow
Carry on.

I can reword it.
Israel did not recieve a deadly wound

I was only pointing out your short comings in the single comment. How is saying your comment was arrogant and contained no real arguments "charter assassination?
And now you're trying to divert the conversation where you want it to go and act as if what I was openly criticizing, and admittedly calling you out on, had anything to do with whether or not "Crossbows becoming flying scorpions is valid or real?" Man I don't even know what you're talking about honestly, my comment had nothing to do with this, and I also want to try to tone down my language here a bit because my intention wasn't to insult or get into a back and forth, so if what I wrote truly insulted you then I apologize, but please reread it because I did not insult your character or name call, I don't even know you. I was only speaking about the overall tone of your comment. It had nothing at all to do with what you were arguing, it was only about the overall spirit of your whole comment, I heard Jesus voice nowhere in your words, and I only wanted to call it out so we could recognize it, put it aside and continuity the conversation with respect. That is not how we should discuss these eternal matters and I just wanted to point it out.

I know I came out strait forward, but I do not feel I assaulted your character, only spoke of what I saw as a situation where what you're hearing goes as far against what you feel God has revealed to you your whole life by the people you trust and love, I can understand that, but that doesn't mean we can start dividing and insulting each other. I know I am no one to point this out because I have had horrible examples of me crashing and burning and ridiculously failing in this area, bad. I am not trying to act as if "I know better, let me teach", at all. The thing is though, that no matter how hypocritical and contrary I have ever lived to His law it doesn't change whats right and wrong, and in Him I have to declare whats right no matter how hypocritical it makes me look. Every Christian is a hypocritical, not in Gods eyes, or in truth, but to the world we are. Unless you're sinless then you have done something you would renounce now. This the world will grab onto and call us hypocrites, but only because they're blind to the truth, but we can't let hypocrisy keep us from speaking the truth. I hope you can forgive me and we can just start this over and do it right.

Which is fine but do you see the reasoning in that "who ever" received the deadly wound In Revelation 17 had already been mortally wounded and at the time of Rev.17 the angel thinks it is "in the abyss"?

If so what you have gained is to see that it had already happened(past tense to the timeline of the writing) and that then it makes no sense to look for it to take place after the Revelation was written and then begin to look for when it received the wound prior to Revelation 17 being written.

If it seems offensive that i assert Israel as who received the deadly wound and then it would be healed in Revelation 13 (two horned beast,image ect.) their are other arguments (Nero,Rome, Egypt,Greece, world before the deluge ect.,ect.) exploring which one is being spoken of, you can ponder one by one after realizing that it doesn't receive the wound from first century forward in time it did somewhere from 1st century backward in time.

Josephus is speaking of this and says "found in their sacred writings" (I suppose he is referring to Jewish writings) but which one? If he is referring to Greek writings it makes no difference because theologians have tried to find the source of the "their sacred oracles" with no luck in either.

In Christian writings their is a city in Revelation 21 that is four square but it is not taken the City nor the Holy House but Josephus was not Christian. As a Christian I hold to the Christian writings because the witness of two or more is true and Josephus is the only source of what is written in War six.

Okay the very heart of the matter, all that scripture you posted, praise His name, all points to what I am saying here, but I LOVE this question "So my question are if Christ returned from heaven, where is He now?"
Well, He is sitting on His throne at the right hand of the Father with All authority in heaven and on earth. Ruling until, by His will and power, His Spirit on earth is bringing everything under Christ, to His kingdom, a spiritual kingdom that we are in "RIGHT NOW TODAY", if we are in Him. This kingdom will know no end, and He even tells us how it grows in the parable you posted, it grows like the mustard seed, starts off the smallest, but over time grows to shade the whole garden so all can find rest in it's shade and branches. Also He does have to, after all enemies have been made a foot stool for His feet, return to earth, believers and unbelievers will be raised, and final judgment will occur. Then there will be a new heaven and earth and the entrance into the eternal state.

What He tells us the kingdom is NOT is something we point to and say "there is the kingdom of God", think about it. If you are waiting for Jesus to bring His kingdom on the clouds in a way we can point to and say "there is the kingdom of God", I think that is exactly what He told us it wasn't, and was and is to this day the same misconception the Jews have on what the Messiah will be. That's just what I think. As far as the 1000 year thing I have to just admit I'm not 100% on that particular issue yet. I haven't looked into it yet much, but thank you I have a motivation to answer that now, just to kind of show I already looked into it trying to see any possible argument that are out there and I haven't read much at all , just glanced over one that spoke about the verse that talks about the "ushering in of the millennial kingdom", again I am going look look into this much deeper now, but that ushering in maybe giving time in between some of this 1,000. I realize how weak, shoddy, and hollow this is, and I don't even accept it as any kind of answer to your question, but it was just all I could find in a quick Google search in the middle of a comment.

We know that many of their sacred writings were destroyed, others were hidden such as the Dead Sea scrolls. Keep in mind, Josephus owed his life to Titus, who spared him. In fact he took the family name, Titus Flavius Josephus. This is NOT a guy who would be writing critically of Titus or his dad. He doesn't have to be a Christian to be useful to this discussion. He was an eye witness to many things he wrote.

The larger discussion we were having is whether or not Vespasian could perform miracles. We have at least one historian claiming he did. Pretty amazing how much fits, even if you are a futurist you have to admit there were some really strange things happening in Rome and Israel between 40-70 AD. Things like chariots flying in the sky surrounding cities, comets in the sky for a full year, a star in the shape of a sword, heifers giving birth to lambs, huge locked heavy gates opening on their own, blood spurting out of the ground with phantoms coming out of the ground, snakes impregnating women, huge Christ-like face seen, temple lighting up at night for a half hour turning the whole area into daytime (the exact opposite of what happened when Christ died), etc.

My bigger question to futurists is this. Since the Bible devotes 90+% of its pages to the story of Israel, wouldn't we expect a substantial portion to be devoted to the event that caused Israel to vanish off the map for nearly 1900 years? If all these events futurists think are in our future, where are the 70 AD events discussed and why so little attention paid to them?

Hey Jim, the bigger question for the futurists is this:

Do you believe Christ is present with His church as its head right now??? If so, when did this happen because we know He left in 30-33 AD and told the disciples that in His absence He would send the Helper (Holy Spirit). Either you believe Christ is Head and present with us now, or not.

Your thinking "dispensationist" when you use the term "futurist" it's like saying all Christians are like Jim Jones(Pentecostal)...

I cant see why many do not see the significance of the events of ad70 either.lol... I suppose they see it as all or none and if they say that it was destroyed and not one stone was left one on the other then it will destroy dispensationism. All it has done is cause them to look for the fulfillment's of certain things in the future instead of looking at the past.

That said though it might seem odd to you that I do not differ with you on certain issues(i.e. destruction of the temple) and others you may or may not have noticed. At times in conversations others have stated to me that I say things that other dispensationals would not agree to this is because I have never been dispensational(pre trib, pre wrath pre mill.)

So in my manner of thinking it is not improper to see the things Jesus spoke of in regards to the destruction of the temple or Jerusalem as fulfilled in ad70. In fact if you consider the past the only things I bring to question are the mark,AoD,word generation ect.(I don't force them into fitting the ad70 timeline).

So I may say that the MoS is here in the world where others believe they will be raptured before he comes. I can see the head receiving a deadly wound in ad70 and it being healed in 1948, the fourth horseman in 1919 ect. or other things because I don't affix them all to the past or set them all into the future I see them beginning at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) and unfolding to this day.

Thanks for sharing your views and partial support for some of my views. I take the position that most things were fulfilled long ago and can make a decent argument as to when and how with a few exceptions. Although some Preterists would argue the 1,000 years ended in 1071 with the Crusades, I'm not totally convinced of this. I look at the world today and find it more immoral than at any other time in history that I've studied, since 70 AD. The generation of Jesus has our generation beat by a lot!! But since then, as a whole, the world became largely Christian for centuries even though we would have monsters throughout. So I ponder how we, as a society, will get back on track and will there by fire from heaven killing all the liberals to do it, LOL?

The problem I have with your middle of the road approach, and I say this with utmost respect as you've always been a gentleman with a true Christian heart unlike others (and myself at times)... How can you say on the one hand the temple, Jerusalem, etc are 70 AD events then things like the MOTB, AoD, MOS, etc are separated by thousands of years? Where does Christ clearly put in this massive gap, a gap wider than the time Israel was a nation from Abraham to Christ? Every NT writer wrote about events in their future with urgency and immediacy? They used terms like, "watch, wait, be sober." They promised "rest" to those being persecuted, they stated that they were in the "last days," etc. If these things wouldn't happen for thousands of years, how do Jesus, Peter, Paul and John get it so wrong?

We have to take the four Gospels as parallel, eye witness accounts, of the same events, right? In other words, we can't take Matthew as being a better authority than Luke. Matthew uses the AoD as the trigger to flee and then the GT will come whereas Luke uses Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as the trigger to flee. The next time Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies was several times between 66-70 AD. Regardless of ones views on the GT, what Jerusalem ensured in 70 AD may accurately be called a great tribulation where 93% of the population met a fate exactly as Luke described it:

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Days of Vengeance??? Who was mad at who for doing what???

Rome was mad at the Jews for their revolt which killed thousands of their solders and made their puppet gov't flee
God was mad at the Jewish religious leaders for what they did to His Son.

We know nursing mothers could not feed their babies and we have an instance of a mother cooking and eating her baby.
We know during the siege that the city was in distress, big time.
We know that many tens of thousands were killed by the sword, by the tyrants and the Romans.
We know many were sold into slavery, including back to Egypt fulfilling prophesy.
We know Jerusalem was trampled by Roman solders until they wiped it off the map.

What are we missing here???

Your thinking "dispensationist" when you use the term "futurist" it's like saying all Christians are like Jim Jones(Pentecostal)...