Does man have a libertarian free will?

They are the best example today that represents no faith as it is written . They must seek the approval of the things seen .

Our brother in the Lord, Peter the serial denier is the perfect model . He was forgiven for his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus the things seen the temporal. That window of forgiveness closed when the Comforter not seen, came. He not seen reminds of the former things he has taught us. We abide in Him who abides in us. He is the greatest.

new word. Anachronism out of date. Can't date the un-datable, eternal one?

They are no more relevant than the price of cheddar in Borneo.

Just. Dead. WRONG.

Go and look it up in a dictionary instead of inventing ignorant irrelevance.

Did they fall away? If so, how? Of their own choice?
Remember, the necessity for salvation started in the garden of Eden where, as pertains to the thread subject, sin entered the world after Adam violated God's first law.
If we consider prior to reading Genesis and that account of the first people that God had already created the Book of Life wherein the names of the saved in His grace was written, as God is Omniscient and all things are predetermined by Him, (this is also called, Determinism, in philosophy), who is actually responsible for the fall?
All per the underlying theme of these threads that attach themselves to the Doctrine of Reformed Theology and TULIP.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/book_of_life
Luke 10:20
Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I am neither a Remonstrant nor a Methodist.
You do know there are more Denominations than Methodism and those others that are categorized under the umbrella of Protestantism?

It was never my intention to lead you away from your false teaching nor faith. However, as per your claim there, incorrect. I and many others have done just that.
Which can be inferred as the cause of you pushing your theology more and more here.

I think you made a very good point that refutes the RT idea we are incapable of free thought, choice, when you asked, Why would we seek after Him is they would feel sadly about it rather than haply seeing it is Him who does give us the desires of our newly created hearts? , if it were true that we are Totally Depraved, made so by God, so as to be incapable of doing any such thing.

People in prison find God . They're serving sentences having committed horrible evils against others and yet there, like the jailer Paul and his fellows encountered while Paul was in jail, they find themselves led by the spirit to do something more with the life they'd thus far to that point wasted.

The RT/TULIP theology is a catastrophe.

I imagine many of you resent a logical, Scriptural defense of Reformed theology. Free willers are accustomed to bullying others around here, and projecting caricatures of Reformed beliefs.

I don't consider free-willer theology to be either Scriptural or God honoring whatsoever. I haven't seen anything but inconsistency and unScriptural views so far.

I am not sure what bucket you would fit under, if you are not Roman Catholic, not Orthodox, not Protestant. The only other categories I have left are cults or other heretical pseudo-Christians such as Pelagianism.

Regarding how Reformed theology affects new believers, it affects them by giving them humility because it focuses on God and not man. It also emboldens them to realize that their spiritual lives are in God's hands, and if someone isn't saved because of their witness, it is because God chose not to regenerate them. They don't need to dwell in fear of losing their salvation, and they realize God is behind their sanctification efforts and won't forsake them.

Arminians may believe in security too, but it often devolves into an antinomian form of it. Reformed theology teaches perseverance of the saints, which means that the fruit of salvation WILL be produced, while at the same time, the person is secure.

You find such antinomian security amongst groups like the Free Grace movement and many non-Reformed Baptists. It is very prevalent in the Southern Baptist Convention (excluding the Reformed Baptist sector).

The question is, why?

The answer is because God regenerates them. They hear the gospel and God regenerates them through the Holy Spirit.

Are you seriously claiming that the man, who is totally carnal and devoid of the Spirit, comes to repentance and faith without spiritual empowerment?

What you seem to think is that there is some island of virtue in the person that causes their own faith and repentance.

By the way, Scripture plainly teaches radical corruption of the man, and that he can do nothing to please God while he is in the flesh. So, how does he please God? How does he produce faith and repentance from his heart of stone?

You do know the Scriptures which state that God must take out the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh, don't you?

Like I have said over and over again, the free willer theology that an unsaved man, with a heart of stone, needs to somehow squeeze faith and repentance from it, so he can receive a heart of flesh as a result, is absurd.

Instead, it makes more sense that God gives him a heart of flesh, so he can produce faith and repentance. I think any believer ought to be able to understand that, especially if they've really experienced salvation.

LOL... I am from Wisconsin a Cheeze head. . . don't sell me short.

Or perhaps no more relevant then bowl of soup that Esau sold for the first born birth rites .Seeing no value in the unseen spiritual things of God.

We are to buy and not sell the gospel truth. . not cheddar in Borneo.It could go with the soup

Without parables, (prophecy,) Christ spoke not. . purposely hiding the gospel understand from those( no faith) who do not desire his kind of salvation (sola scriptura)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

it really is interesting when you check out how Calvinists operate

for example in this thread we have John 6:44 being touted as the be all and end all of undeniable 'proof' of irresistable grace

turns out, that particular verse is many a Calvinist's wheelhouse from which to wield their doctrine

but as usual, we do not see context; we see one verse, on its own, taken out of context and used as doctrine

granted there are a few other choice verses from that chapter also employed, but not one verse follows another so that you end up having something that looks like it has been picked over and only certain agreeable verses are scheduled for examination, leaving again the rest of the chapter blowing in the wind

thing is, we see as we continue looking into John 6, that some who had been picked by Jesus turned away. If Jesus looses no one who comes to Him, then what is going on here? v. 65-67

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

so these disciples are called disciples...they are not called black sheep, they are not called lost, they are not called pharisees or any other phrase that would indicate they were never believing in Jesus to begin with. BUT THEY WALK AWAY AND THEY ARE CALLED DISCIPLES

did Jesus loose them? or did they MAKE A CHOICE which is actually what happened

this folks, is how John 6 is actually understood and not as a rampart of TULIP

if that is not clear enough we also have the example of Judas in v.70 same chapter

did Jesus choose Judas or not? well. let's see

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

uh oh. was Judas one of the 'elect?' well he must have been since Jesus CHOOSE him

so if your gospel teaches that if you are chosen to be elect and yet you go to hell....or wait...is that what they mean by some are chosen to go to hell?

well that cannot be so either because as not one single Calvinist will answer, who did God make hell for?

God made hell for the devil and his angels...the lake of fire. the Bible says God is not willing that any should perish

so if God made hell for spiritual beings, then it would be incorrect to state He also made hell for people

so if election equates to eternal life as any good Calvinist will assert, then John 6:70 is telling us that Jesus elected Judas to eternal life while knowing that Judas would betry him, in fact, the devil pushed Judas to his end

Jesus clearly states that He chose the 12, one of whom was Judas, but this does not fit in with the elect narrative of Calvin

the actual understanding of John 6, is that we see this as an choosing or election for service....not eternal life

to understand Jesus words as meaning or equal to eternal life, several things have to be ignored, not the least of which is the the fact that God did not make the lake of fire for human beings

further, Jesus asking the 12 disciples we are most familiar with if they also will go away, does not indicate Jesus basically is in charge of whether or not they do

it's always about choice as John 6 clearly indicates

well that is exactly how Calvin came to his conclusions and what drives the ideology today

and John 6 is one of their best examples of how it is done

if you totally ignore all scripture that indicates people are BORN with the knowledge that God exists, then you can believe the false doctrine that people must be forced into believing in God by some irresistable force that scripture says nothing whatsoever about

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1

now who has shown mankind of God's existence?

GOD HIMSELF ACCORDING TO ROMANS 1

To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. ... Psalm 19:1-6

Do you eat Kringle?

I used to live in Kenosha near Racine..for one year.

What I find difficult to get through to as pertains to devout RT or Calvinists is, they'll accept the teachings of a Denominations founder, but they don't take the time to reason and search the scriptures so as to see if what that Denominational teaching claims of God is actually contextually true.
They rather prefer that the Good News, is members only. And those members were only those who were chosen to be members before the world came to exist.
It isn't physics. It's simple rationale.
For RT/Calvinism/TULIP to be true, God would not only be the author of sin, but would have pre-arranged the fall of humanity so as to later save only those He intended to save, while insuring all others would suffer the fate He prescribed.

And worse? The Total Depravity condition of all people.
I wonder if Calvin realized what that T in the dread flower actually implied about the Old Testament prophets and scribes of the Torah.
They were Totally Depraved , for all that means, and we're to then trust , since their condition makes them unable to be righteous or moral, that the God that made them that way inspired them to copy His words down?
Why would God give His words to those His world plan created to be Totally Depraved first?
And they weren't made that way due to Adam, when God wrote a list of names of those He'd force into His grace and to have faith in Him, before He created the world that would be in sin later on.

It's said to be the case, but it can't be when that list pre-existed Adam, by whom sin entered the world, in the garden where Omniscient God planted that tree that would make it all go according to His plan.

RT/Calvinism/TULIP tells us people don't have free will. The capacity to exercise a free choice, so Eve ate as predetermined, and so too did Adam. And the Serpent was an agent of God so as to make it all work as planned.

Somehow, "WOW!" , doesn't quite cover it, when coming to realize, with very little effort, what RT/Calvinism/TULIP is really teaching about God.
But, when you think about it, man being Totally Depraved and made in the image and likeness of God, is saying even more about what God is according to RT/Calvinism/TULIP; God=Totally Depraved.

Why would people want to follow Denominations anyway? They're founded by men teaching what they believe Jesus' word meant to say.
Wasn't Jesus able to get the message across on His own well enough?
The Book of John chapter 6
John (Narrative)
Timeline
Early church period after Christ's resurrection; between AD 50 and 85.


Theme
John presents Jesus as the Word, the Messiah and the incarnate Son of God, who has come to reveal the Father and bring eternal life to all who believe in him.
Overview
It’s clear from the first paragraphs of this Gospel that the disciple John broke sharply from the styles of the other Gospel writers—Matthew, Mark, and Luke. They focused on events, following Jesus through the bustling marketplaces and villages. Unlike them, John assumed that readers knew the basic facts about Jesus. Instead, he mulled over the profound meaning of what Jesus had said and done. The NIV Student Bible says the book of John reads as if it were written under a great shade tree by an author who had lots of time for reflection. In his first sentence, John highlights Christ’s nature. John’s book tells the story of the eternal Word who became flesh and dwelt with humanity. People often turn to the Gospel of John because it spells out so clearly the basics of the Christian faith. Jesus proves who he is, diagnoses humanity’s problems, and bluntly describes what is necessary for conversion to everlasting life.

Your signature makes your repeated arguments for your theology hypocrisy.

Nor are the Totally Depraved inclined to hear the Gospel, as you've argued time and again.

All we have to do to know what you're about is read one of your TULIP advocacy posts and then read your signature to know you are not genuine, but are here under false pretenses.

God help us.
The lie will never overcome the Truth of God in Christ! Amen!
Calvinism

God refutes Calvinism, TULIP and RT! Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”


Flaws In Calvinism

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

John Calvin (1509-1564) was a French theologian during the Protestant Reformation whose system of Christian theology, primarily expressed in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, has exerted tremendous influence throughout the Christian world for nearly five centuries. The central tenets of his thinking have been summarized under the acrostic TULIP.

Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.
Bible Responses

Ezekiel 18:19-23—“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself…. ‘Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?’ says the Lord GOD, ‘and not that he should turn from his ways and live?’”
Ezekiel 28:15—“You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.”
Psalm 106:37-38—“They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters.”
Zechariah 12:1—“Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.”
Matthew 18:2-3—“Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.’”
Matthew 19:14—“But Jesus said, ‘Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.’”
Romans 7:9—“I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died.”

Unconditional Election = God chose from eternity to save certain people, not based upon any foreseen virtue, faith, or anticipated acceptance of the Gospel. God chose to extend mercy to those He has specifically chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive wrath and damnation.
Bible Responses

Luke 13:3—“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
John 3:16—“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
John 8:24—“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Acts 10:34-35—“Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.’”
Romans 2:5-11—“God…will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
1 Peter 1:17—“And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”
Revelation 22:17—“Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.”

Limited Atonement = Christ died only for those whom God specifically pre-decided to save—the elect—but not for any others.
Bible Responses

1 Timothy 2:3-4—“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6—“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all.”
Titus 2:11-12—“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.”
1 John 2:2—“And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.”
John 3:17—“For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
2 Peter 3:9—“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
Acts 10:34—“God shows no partiality.”
Romans 2:11—“For there is no partiality with God.”
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Bible Responses
Deuteronomy 30:19—“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life.”
Joshua 24:15—“Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Luke 7:30—“But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.”
John 12:42-43—“Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
Acts 7:51—“You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”

Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Bible Responses

Galatians 5:4—“You [Christians] have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
2 Peter 2:20-22—“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: ‘A dog returns to his own vomit,’ and, ‘a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.’”

Hebrews 4:11—“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”
Hebrews 6:4-6—“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
Hebrews 10:38-39—“‘Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”
James 5:19-20—“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”
Revelation 2:5—“Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”
Revelation 3:5—“He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
Revelation 22:19—“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life.”

Your description of Reformed theology is totally scrambled and unintelligible.

I don't think you understand what Reformed theology teaches, yet you believe you're qualified to criticize it.

Incredible.

I suggest that folks review what I've described, or read the book on the Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele in order to determine what Reformed theology teaches.

This man's description of it is unintelligible and I can't even untangle it enough to criticize it, because I don't recognize what he's talking about.

I don't think he understands that total depravity means "radical corruption" and doesn't pertain to the OT prophets, who had a regenerate nature.

By the way, free-willers have no reason to believe in biblical inerrancy, because in their mind, God does not influence the will in order to produce an inerrant work. Within compatibilism, the Reformed believer has a basis for asserting inerrancy.

Amen!

Dave Miller is a Church of Christ guy. Why would you quote a Campbellite as an authority figure?

This means he probably believes in baptismal regeneration, and is a hardcore Arminian. In fact, he goes beyond Arminian theology. If he is a Church of Christ guy, he follows the teachings of Alexander Campbell, which means that he believes in baptismal regeneration.

By the way, Reformed people do not claim that the reprobate (non-elect) cannot resist the gospel. They certainly can resist the gospel, and so can the elect for a period of time. Ultimately, though, the resistance of the elect will cease because God regenerates them.

Additionally, your authority, Dave Miller, is proof-texting to make his claims.

Examine Acts 13:46 carefully, along with the whole chapter.

Mr. Miller quotes this Scripture:

Acts 13:46—“Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, ‘It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.’”

but he does not quote this one:

Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

As I have indicated, the Reformed person believes in compatibilism. Those who reject God are not elected to eternal salvation, so there is a compatibilism between predestination (God's foreordination) and their rejection.

Those reprobates (non-elect) who reject God certainly reject him because they are rebel sinners who have not been regenerated. That is because they are not part of the elect.

Those who accept Christ (elect) accept him in faith and repentance, because God has already given them to the Son, and the Holy Spirit regenerates these individuals. This is because they are part of the elect, who have been appointed to eternal life from the foundation of the earth to belong to Jesus.

God elects them from the foundation of the world, then Jesus atones for their sins, then the Holy Spirit applies this redemption in time.

Dave Miller is being dishonest as he obviously knows that the Scripture regarding this appointment of the elect within the Gentiles follows.

But, that's what you get when you rely on proof-texting outside of the context of the Scriptures.

The Reformed view is the view which is consistent with all of Scripture. The free-willer position is simply incoherent and denies all the pertinent Scriptures.

I am not defending anyone here even though I do agree with the poster, whispered, you are responding to here

look at your first sentence in that response:

Your description of Reformed theology is totally scrambled and unintelligible.

followed by the second:

I don't think you understand what Reformed theology teaches, yet you believe you're qualified to criticize it.

then you suggest we should all review what you have written

you sound like every other hard core Calvinist on this forum who cannot respond without either demonizing or diminishing other people rather than defend their position

you may state you are not Calvinist, but your tactics are pretty much the same

so you state that no one understands you

baloney

we understand you all too well and what bothers you is that you cannot refute the posts or the scripture so then you bemoan the so called lack of understanding present here in everyone but you

get real