Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I mean the bodily resurrection of the just, when I speak of glorification, but it really wouldn't matter if one is talking about heaven or the bodily resurrection of the just. The point is that John 6:44 teaches that each one who is drawn receives eternal life.
Additionally, the whole chapter proves that there are individuals who have been given to the Son by the Father, and there are individuals who have not been given to the Son. The ones who have been given to the Son by the Father are drawn to him, and are ultimately saved.
Regarding your previous posts, I think I've told you I am not going to spend an hour following your reasoning on something when you haven't even given me a summary of your claim. I have tried to follow your reasoning on some things and found them incoherent. I don't think you reason very soundly.
For instance, the "each" in 1 Cor 15:23 is talking about PEOPLE.
1 Corinthians 15:23 15:23–28 The events at the end of history argue for a bodily resurrection: Christ was raised from the dead first, and his followers will be raised from the dead when he returns (v. 23); Christ’s return brings the end of the present world as he finally eliminates all powers that oppose God (v. 24); Jesus’ present rule lasts until he has subjected all enemies to God’s rule (v. 25, alluding to Ps 110:1); then death, the believers’ last enemy, will be destroyed (vv. 26–27, which quotes Ps 8:6) and Christ’s victory will result in God’s victory (v. 28). The “kingdom” (v. 24) and Christ’s reign (v. 25) is Christ’s rule over history as mediator and sustainer of creation (Col 1:15–17), over the church as his body (Col 1:18), and over the individual lives of his people. Note that Jesus said the kingdom of God had dawned in and through his ministry (Luke 17:21). Some relate Christ’s reign to the millennium (1,000 years) mentioned in Rev 20:1–6.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)
My understanding would be no different than this.
Additionally, the whole chapter proves that there are individuals who have been given to the Son by the Father, and there are individuals who have not been given to the Son. The ones who have been given to the Son by the Father are drawn to him, and are ultimately saved.
Regarding your previous posts, I think I've told you I am not going to spend an hour following your reasoning on something when you haven't even given me a summary of your claim. I have tried to follow your reasoning on some things and found them incoherent. I don't think you reason very soundly.
For instance, the "each" in 1 Cor 15:23 is talking about PEOPLE.
1 Corinthians 15:23 15:23–28 The events at the end of history argue for a bodily resurrection: Christ was raised from the dead first, and his followers will be raised from the dead when he returns (v. 23); Christ’s return brings the end of the present world as he finally eliminates all powers that oppose God (v. 24); Jesus’ present rule lasts until he has subjected all enemies to God’s rule (v. 25, alluding to Ps 110:1); then death, the believers’ last enemy, will be destroyed (vv. 26–27, which quotes Ps 8:6) and Christ’s victory will result in God’s victory (v. 28). The “kingdom” (v. 24) and Christ’s reign (v. 25) is Christ’s rule over history as mediator and sustainer of creation (Col 1:15–17), over the church as his body (Col 1:18), and over the individual lives of his people. Note that Jesus said the kingdom of God had dawned in and through his ministry (Luke 17:21). Some relate Christ’s reign to the millennium (1,000 years) mentioned in Rev 20:1–6.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)
My understanding would be no different than this.
-
1
- Show all
Agreed.
"[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER"
(the Two Witnesses, for example, are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot, which is a distinct point in time from others [that is, other PEOPLE
] who are resurrected)
"[re: resurrection] but each IN HIS OWN ORDER"
(the Two Witnesses, for example, are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot, which is a distinct point in time from others [that is, other PEOPLE
] who are resurrected)
Due to union with Christ, the believers experience the same resurrection, even if there is a temporal difference.
Rom 6:1-14 says that the believer was resurrected with Jesus. Some take that strictly to refer to new behavior. I take it in a very literal sense that when I was regenerated, I was risen to new life because my life was joined to Jesus, and my resurrection is his resurrection.
In fact, I think that "second death" is a play on words, and there is only one resurrection to eternal punishment.
So, the two options are:
first resurrection (connected with Jesus' resurrection)
second death
However, I realize Scripture refers to the second death as a resurrection in some passages so my preference isn't observed.
-
1
- Show all
Agreed.
[re: resurrection] "but each IN HIS OWN ORDER"
(the Two Witnesses, for example, are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot, which is a distinct point in time from others [that is, other PEOPLE besides them] who are resurrected)
[re: resurrection] "but each IN HIS OWN ORDER"
(the Two Witnesses, for example, are resurrected at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot, which is a distinct point in time from others [that is, other PEOPLE
besides them] who are resurrected)
By the time some of the more creative dispensationalists get done, we could be parsing the entire Bible off into thousands of dispensations.
By the way, are you going to break this off into a separate dispensation?
By the time some of the more creative dispensationalists get done, we could be parsing the entire Bible off into thousands of dispensations.
By the time some of the more creative dispensationalists get done, we could be parsing the entire Bible off into thousands of dispensations.
["11 And after the three and a half days, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them.
[…] 14 The second woe has passed. [...]" ]
[plz clarify...??] Are you asking me if I believe the Two Witnesses need to have their own "dispensation" in order to be the only ones "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time slot??
["11 And after the three and a half days, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them.
[…] 14 The second woe has passed. [...]" ]
["11 And after the three and a half days, the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon those beholding them.
[…] 14 The second woe has passed. [...]" ]
^ In view of that comment [so. many. threads. ], I feel it prudent to post what I'd just put in another of these "like" threads, for the readers (of this one):
[quoting that post]
https://christianchat.com/threads/3...se-against-non-calvinists.187702/post-4048745 - Post #336
...and you may not recall my posts (it's okay) regarding the "G138 - heilato /haireó " of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (which I tend to agree with the versions which translate it as "chosen you firstfruit" )
[quoting from BibleHub]
" choose.
Probably akin to airo https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
see GREEK airo https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm"
[end quoting BibleHub]
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm
In THIS context, I believe it is speaking "to,for,about" "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ] (all those saved "in this present age [singular]")
[end quoting that post]
], I feel it prudent to post what I'd just put in another of these "like" threads, for the readers (of this one):[quoting that post]
https://christianchat.com/threads/3...se-against-non-calvinists.187702/post-4048745 - Post #336
...and you may not recall my posts (it's okay) regarding the "G138 - heilato /haireó " of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (which I tend to agree with the versions which translate it as "chosen you firstfruit" )
[quoting from BibleHub]
" choose.
Probably akin to airo https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm [G142]; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer -- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.
see GREEK airo https://biblehub.com/greek/142.htm"
[end quoting BibleHub]
https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-13.htm
In THIS context, I believe it is speaking "to,for,about" "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN ] (all those saved "in this present age [singular]")
[end quoting that post]
hi bro here is something i think about
if tulip is true. why doesnt God just grant everyone perfect repentance? they say its repentance the gift of God, you cant do it. why does God give such a terrible repentance to people then? half-way job. (or half- you know what[donkey] job).
that would proof tulip really well i think to everyone. but every reformed man and woman always say its progressive sanctification we are transformed slowly but why, if God gave us good heart, new creature and God does it all perfectly it should be walking like Jesus. not this half--youknowwhat[donkey] repentance.
mr @Lightskin i remember you said that you were given that nickname because most your friends are black. same for me my future wife is black too. and i just want to know is that your nickname because you are white or because you are lightskinned black. when i first saw that nickname i thought it was like one of those names that native americans have.
if tulip is true. why doesnt God just grant everyone perfect repentance? they say its repentance the gift of God, you cant do it. why does God give such a terrible repentance to people then? half-way job. (or half- you know what[donkey] job).
that would proof tulip really well i think to everyone. but every reformed man and woman always say its progressive sanctification we are transformed slowly but why, if God gave us good heart, new creature and God does it all perfectly it should be walking like Jesus. not this half--youknowwhat[donkey] repentance.
mr @Lightskin i remember you said that you were given that nickname because most your friends are black. same for me my future wife is black too. and i just want to know is that your nickname because you are white or because you are lightskinned black. when i first saw that nickname i thought it was like one of those names that native americans have.
-
2
- Show all
What is interesting is that when I carefully read your view of Reformed theology it is essentially and practically almost the same that I believe. Calvinists do not believe in "free will", yet you do believe in a certain amount of free choice for man. Yet your accusations against the "free will/Amininian" position show you do not really understand what we (or at least I ) believe. Your villianization of Charles Finney shows a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his position. To say a person is not a Christian because of doctrinal belief? Really? And that is exactly what you say above: "because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement" - that is all doctrinal positions - Salvation is not because of a correct knowledge or position on doctrine.
) believe. Your villianization of Charles Finney shows a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his position. To say a person is not a Christian because of doctrinal belief? Really? And that is exactly what you say above: "because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement" - that is all doctrinal positions - Salvation is not because of a correct knowledge or position on doctrine.-
1
- Show all
So are you saying that Jesus died for worldly things such as "government" and that is what he is going to raise up at the last day? When scriptures harmonize you have to use a little common sense to have them harmonize. And he died for all that "those living" (born again) no longer should live to themselves (their old fleshly nature), but to the one having died for them (people, not things) and having been raised again.
What is interesting is that when I carefully read your view of Reformed theology it is essentially and practically almost the same that I believe. Calvinists do not believe in "free will", yet you do believe in a certain amount of free choice for man. Yet your accusations against the "free will/Amininian" position show you do not really understand what we (or at least I ) believe. Your villianization of Charles Finney shows a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his position. To say a person is not a Christian because of doctrinal belief? Really? And that is exactly what you say above: "because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement" - that is all doctrinal positions - Salvation is not because of a correct knowledge or position on doctrine.
) believe. Your villianization of Charles Finney shows a gross misunderstanding and misrepresentation of his position. To say a person is not a Christian because of doctrinal belief? Really? And that is exactly what you say above: "because he denied original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, and substitutionary atonement" - that is all doctrinal positions - Salvation is not because of a correct knowledge or position on doctrine.
And this is what Charles Finney did. He denied that righteousness is gained through receiving Jesus' righteousness imputed to the person. God doesn't even allow that from his nation of Israel (Rom 10:1-4).
And, the Galatians were in danger of being accursed due to rejection of justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (Gal 1:6-7).
Finney also denied that Jesus died as his substitute.
Yet, he is a hero in some circles. Billy Graham and Chuck Smith declared that he was a great man of God. I don't think either of them knew his theology, though, and were just commenting on his alleged evangelism.
-
1
- Show all
United in Christ in time, when they are regenerated. One can't receive any eternal life until they are joined with Christ, because he is the source of their eternal life.
They were already elected, or marked out for salvation, from the foundation of the world by the Father. Jesus died for them, specifically. And the Holy Spirit regenerates them, joining them to Christ and applying all the benefits of salvation.
Salvation is a work of the Triune God.
I'm not sure where this came from, though.
They were already elected, or marked out for salvation, from the foundation of the world by the Father. Jesus died for them, specifically. And the Holy Spirit regenerates them, joining them to Christ and applying all the benefits of salvation.
Salvation is a work of the Triune God.
I'm not sure where this came from, though.
-
1
- Show all
This topic is why I think that I have a broader view of who the elect are than you do. I believe the scriptures to teach that if a person truly believes that there is a spiritual God and worships him, ( contrary to the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 ) that he is an elect child of God. You have not convinced me otherwise as of yet.
