Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon
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No dispensations .God works by His faith working in us purifying the hearts of men in any generation . Purified the heart of Abel by a work of His faith or called a labor of love just as us today .
Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Acts 15:8-10 King James Version (KJV) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Oh that you might catch a glimpse of what God has chosen for man. God chose to send His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to redeem man. I do know that election is the result of salvation not the cause of salvation. I do know that you sound more like a Pharisee than a born again Christian. You judge and condemn everyone that you deem God has not elected to eternal life.
If you want to act like a Christian you will need to demonstrate a whole lot more compassion for those who are not saved and those who are new in the faith. Kindness and not arrogance is Christ teaches us to act.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you want to act like a Christian you will need to demonstrate a whole lot more compassion for those who are not saved and those who are new in the faith. Kindness and not arrogance is Christ teaches us to act.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I will say in my experience just in this forum debating the points of Calvinism that if one lets their heart commit to the study of Calvin's doctrine just so as to refute it, in that short amount of time while reading what Calvinism teaches, it can cause one to think the worst of Calvin's God. And then if you ask yourself , what if that really is true? The depression can flicker but before that the idea of saying, to heck with it all. If that's God, I'm out!
In my experience even having a brief encounter with Calvinism's teachings, leadings, can lead to considering atheism as a better road.
Now that is depressing.
But Calvin was of the Devil, so we should take heed of that and realize John's mission was to lead people away from the truth of God in Christ.
What we all share here as to our feelings encountering the Calvinist teachings I think is evidence of that.
Now imagine those who live their entire life as one.
In my experience even having a brief encounter with Calvinism's teachings, leadings, can lead to considering atheism as a better road.
Now that is depressing.
But Calvin was of the Devil, so we should take heed of that and realize John's mission was to lead people away from the truth of God in Christ.
What we all share here as to our feelings encountering the Calvinist teachings I think is evidence of that.
Now imagine those who live their entire life as one.
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I will say in my experience just in this forum debating the points of Calvinism that if one lets their heart commit to the study of Calvin's doctrine just so as to refute it, in that short amount of time while reading what Calvinism teaches, it can cause one to think the worst of Calvin's God. And then if you ask yourself , what if that really is true? The depression can flicker but before that the idea of saying, to heck with it all. If that's God, I'm out!
In my experience even having a brief encounter with Calvinism's teachings, leadings, can lead to considering atheism as a better road.
Now that is depressing.
But Calvin was of the Devil, so we should take heed of that and realize John's mission was to lead people away from the truth of God in Christ.
What we all share here as to our feelings encountering the Calvinist teachings I think is evidence of that.
Now imagine those who live their entire life as one.
In my experience even having a brief encounter with Calvinism's teachings, leadings, can lead to considering atheism as a better road.
Now that is depressing.
But Calvin was of the Devil, so we should take heed of that and realize John's mission was to lead people away from the truth of God in Christ.
What we all share here as to our feelings encountering the Calvinist teachings I think is evidence of that.
Now imagine those who live their entire life as one.
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I didn’t read anything beyond this ^^^^
Your words express your heart quite clearly. It reeks of condescending arrogance towards others who don’t share your views which are elitist in their truest form. If election is correct, which it is not, and you’re one of the elect, your heart should be more humble then apple pie.
Your words express your heart quite clearly. It reeks of condescending arrogance towards others who don’t share your views which are elitist in their truest form. If election is correct, which it is not, and you’re one of the elect, your heart should be more humble then apple pie.
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The blindness on this site is amazing. It is OBVIOUS that election is true. Even Arminians, who are free-willers, admit it, but they try to twist it around so that God doesn't really choose; man chooses then God chooses knowing which ones will choose him.
By the way, I started addressing others roughly after being told that Reformed theology is Satanic, and that I was an idiot for believing it. Free-willers often make the claim that Reformed people are arrogant and rude, when in fact they are.
By the way, I started addressing others roughly after being told that Reformed theology is Satanic, and that I was an idiot for believing it. Free-willers often make the claim that Reformed people are arrogant and rude, when in fact they are.
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Additionally, this is the tactic that free-willers use when their bullying doesn't work to silence a Reformed believer. They attempt to play the guilt card.
I am not submitting to free-willer bullying or guilting tactics, because then he will think he's right.
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
(ESV)
I have submitted Scriptures to prove that unconditional election is true if you want to read them.
I am not submitting to free-willer bullying or guilting tactics, because then he will think he's right.
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
(ESV)
I have submitted Scriptures to prove that unconditional election is true if you want to read them.
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Always interesting to see someone who believes in libertarian free-will pray for God to save someone. As if God would over-ride their free will.
Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!
Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!
I would think God must do the first works...
God created mankind with a will subject to His. Mankind freely gave it over to do the will of another .
Jesus set the example to get into the flock. Eat of the food the disciples knew not of and finish it..
John 4:34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Why finish the work of the father of lies?
We should do it as he works in us to both a both will and do His good pleasure . No Limbo will in between. It becomes which master will a person serve today ? Our father in heaven or the god of this world?
Why murmur as if a person could resist the will of God? Bragging rites?
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:Phillipians2:10-14
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Always interesting to see someone who believes in libertarian free-will pray for God to save someone. As if God would over-ride their free will.
Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!
Ya see bro. I aint mad at you! I love you. Just saying, MEMES are easy to make!
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=623102243266
It is by Brian Borgman.
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Another good quote by Spurgeon:
Jonah 2:9. With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
That is one of the grandest utterances that any man ever made: “SALVATION!” Write it in capital letters. It is a very emphatic word in the Hebrew, and I might read it, “Mighty salvation is of Jehovah.” This is real, old-fashioned Calvinistic doctrine spoken centuries before John Calvin was born. The whale could not endure it, and he turned Jonah out directly he said, “Salvation is of the Lord.” The world does not like that doctrine, and there are many professing Christians who do not like it. They say, “Salvation is of man’s free will; salvation is of the works of the law; salvation is of rites and ceremonies;” and so on. But we say, with Jonah, “Salvation is of the Lord.” He works it from beginning to end, and therefore he must have all the praise for it for ever and ever.
Was Jonah's whale a free-willer? Is that why he vomited Jonah out, after he admitted that Salvation is of the LORD?
Jonah 2:9. With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
That is one of the grandest utterances that any man ever made: “SALVATION!” Write it in capital letters. It is a very emphatic word in the Hebrew, and I might read it, “Mighty salvation is of Jehovah.” This is real, old-fashioned Calvinistic doctrine spoken centuries before John Calvin was born. The whale could not endure it, and he turned Jonah out directly he said, “Salvation is of the Lord.” The world does not like that doctrine, and there are many professing Christians who do not like it. They say, “Salvation is of man’s free will; salvation is of the works of the law; salvation is of rites and ceremonies;” and so on. But we say, with Jonah, “Salvation is of the Lord.” He works it from beginning to end, and therefore he must have all the praise for it for ever and ever.
Was Jonah's whale a free-willer? Is that why he vomited Jonah out, after he admitted that Salvation is of the LORD?
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Here is MacArthurs take on so called "total depravity". And "Jesus was no Arminian"...
Great message from John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library
If your depressed now you will need therapy after this....
Great message from John MacArthur http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library
If your depressed now you will need therapy after this....
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I'm not sure what you are saying.
You're claiming to read my heart when you cannot.
My position is that God CHOOSES some of the worst individuals to make His glory shown more clearly. And, he regenerates individuals that others consider worthless.
Read 1 Cor 1:26 ff.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
(ESV)
It is amusing to me how many people are blind to the fact that 1) God chooses 2) God chooses people with particular characteristics 3) that he chooses people like this to make his glory known.
However, the claim of free-willers is that GOD DOESN'T CHOOSE AT ALL. Or they twist it around to claim that they chose God instead, and that is why God chose them, and therefore God doesn't choose and there was something more noble about them that caused them to choose God while someone else didn't.
That's what it all boils down to.
Additionally, I am continually surprised by those who claim to know my heart. It is true that I state my position bluntly and plainly, and folks don't like that, and I am shocked people don't acknowledge these things. Or, they see the truth but retreat back to their old position in short order.
I am like the blind man who was healed by Jesus, and praised God for it. He told the Pharisees that it's plain Jesus isn't from Satan, yet they refused to see and they cast him out of the synagogue (John 9). It is just plain that God chooses individuals, yet most people will simply refuse to see it because it doesn't fit what they've been taught. It's pretty simple to me. But, they don't want to hear things that challenge what they've been TAUGHT.
That's actually what Melach said.....he started to see that people believe because they are Jesus' sheep, and they are not Jesus' sheep because they believe. He said, that isn't like I was TAUGHT. This betrayed the fact that what he believes relates to what he's been TAUGHT by other people. Ultimately, I think he rejected the position that people believe because they are Jesus' sheep, and he causes them to believe, but he saw it for a moment then retreated back into his free-willer worldview.
I realize there's a strong anti-Reformed element here though. They want to bully those who believe differently on this matter. Too bad I can't be bullied and I know what the Bible says
You're claiming to read my heart when you cannot.
My position is that God CHOOSES some of the worst individuals to make His glory shown more clearly. And, he regenerates individuals that others consider worthless.
Read 1 Cor 1:26 ff.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
(ESV)
It is amusing to me how many people are blind to the fact that 1) God chooses 2) God chooses people with particular characteristics 3) that he chooses people like this to make his glory known.
However, the claim of free-willers is that GOD DOESN'T CHOOSE AT ALL. Or they twist it around to claim that they chose God instead, and that is why God chose them, and therefore God doesn't choose and there was something more noble about them that caused them to choose God while someone else didn't.
That's what it all boils down to.
Additionally, I am continually surprised by those who claim to know my heart. It is true that I state my position bluntly and plainly, and folks don't like that, and I am shocked people don't acknowledge these things. Or, they see the truth but retreat back to their old position in short order.
I am like the blind man who was healed by Jesus, and praised God for it. He told the Pharisees that it's plain Jesus isn't from Satan, yet they refused to see and they cast him out of the synagogue (John 9). It is just plain that God chooses individuals, yet most people will simply refuse to see it because it doesn't fit what they've been taught. It's pretty simple to me. But, they don't want to hear things that challenge what they've been TAUGHT.
That's actually what Melach said.....he started to see that people believe because they are Jesus' sheep, and they are not Jesus' sheep because they believe. He said, that isn't like I was TAUGHT. This betrayed the fact that what he believes relates to what he's been TAUGHT by other people. Ultimately, I think he rejected the position that people believe because they are Jesus' sheep, and he causes them to believe, but he saw it for a moment then retreated back into his free-willer worldview.
I realize there's a strong anti-Reformed element here though. They want to bully those who believe differently on this matter. Too bad I can't be bullied and I know what the Bible says
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your adacity, claiming your heart is really above all or any guilt regarding some of your more, ummm shall we say less than kind posts to others
if anyone else states their position bluntly, which for sure I have been known to do sans the mocking and name calling, you call them out while claiming how they misrepresent you. in fact, you told people in another thread to look me up and judge whether or not I was being a big ole meanie (my words but the gist is the same)
you were especially nasty to Melach
the element here is not actually anti-reformed so much as anti rudeness, mockery and name calling
your attitude to others here, who do not agree with Calvin and your representation of Calvinism (I know I know you are not a Calvinist...much
) are actually bullied by you. we see it and comment on it while you deny it. the blind leading it would seem
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At any rate, claiming I believe I'm superior isn't true. In fact, I know God can take anyone and cause them to understand what he wants them to understand. LOL He is like the star athlete who chooses the dumbest, fattest, less athletic kid who wears thick glasses to be his teammate so he can display his glory more fully in the wins that he achieves
no
actually God looks on the heart
not on our understanding
by His Spirit He gives understanding, according to His word
He gives gifts to men and searches the hearts and minds of all
God cannot take anyone. and He does not take anyone
His ways are far above our ways
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Always interesting to see a Calvinist get angry about anothers belief. As if they had a choice to choose otherwise
exactly
they are not responsible for what they do or believe
they became 'irresistibly' saved and do not even have to worry about what they say, do or think cause it was all preordained
To suggest that Jesus was Calvinistic because He was "no Arminian" is laughable.
Just two verses of the words of Christ should kill that absurd idea:
SALVATION IS FOR ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE ON CHRIST -- THE WHOLE WORLD
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)
Just two verses of the words of Christ should kill that absurd idea:
SALVATION IS FOR ALL WHO WILL BELIEVE ON CHRIST -- THE WHOLE WORLD
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17)
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Just thinking outloud...
I understand your frustrations with not wanting to be attacked, calling your faith demonic or your mind idiotic.
Also...
sure there are established relationships here. Obviously preference among men. But you will notice, those who agree with you, like you. It is the nature of the human beast. Those who do not, not so much. Humans are fickle, selective, selfish, prideful, and stubborn, that is why we ALL need a Savior.
I encourage you to truly forgive the ones who attacked your character or faith, be like stephen or our Christ, accept they know not what they do, and hold firm to the refuge that is Him.
With all that said, I still think the Gospel of Christ is what we should be focusing on, not the elect.
I spent a great deal of time recently, trying to understand the differences between Armenianism, Calvinism and Molism, for example.
I wanted to make sure I am at the right church, not to be sure I am saved for I believe and trust my Lord.
I now understand how folks can look at the same passages and come up with such different conclusions.
Let me just say, I think it best to be going to Him, leaning on Him is best, not weighing ourselves down with making sure we prove our position on election and predestination.
How does the serve the cause of Christ?
If folks feel they chose to believe, and you feel like He made us believe, does it matter? We believe. Praise His Holy Name...We Believe!!!! He is our King, all Praise and Glory to Him. He will present us blameless. He died for us all, His mercy supreme.
In Him, and in Him alone, we are elect, so lets just focus on Him.
He created us for good works, to be Holy and blameless, but only possible in Him.
If we love Him, seek Him, making Him the desire of our hearts, that is where we need to start and end, let Him work out the rest. Ours is merely to trust Him enough to keep on loving and forgiving, all with Him in mind.
I suppose, though, if we did that, so many threads would cease to be active or even cease to be.
I understand your frustrations with not wanting to be attacked, calling your faith demonic or your mind idiotic.
Also...
sure there are established relationships here. Obviously preference among men. But you will notice, those who agree with you, like you. It is the nature of the human beast. Those who do not, not so much. Humans are fickle, selective, selfish, prideful, and stubborn, that is why we ALL need a Savior.
I encourage you to truly forgive the ones who attacked your character or faith, be like stephen or our Christ, accept they know not what they do, and hold firm to the refuge that is Him.
With all that said, I still think the Gospel of Christ is what we should be focusing on, not the elect.
I spent a great deal of time recently, trying to understand the differences between Armenianism, Calvinism and Molism, for example.
I wanted to make sure I am at the right church, not to be sure I am saved for I believe and trust my Lord.
I now understand how folks can look at the same passages and come up with such different conclusions.
Let me just say, I think it best to be going to Him, leaning on Him is best, not weighing ourselves down with making sure we prove our position on election and predestination.
How does the serve the cause of Christ?
If folks feel they chose to believe, and you feel like He made us believe, does it matter? We believe. Praise His Holy Name...We Believe!!!! He is our King, all Praise and Glory to Him. He will present us blameless. He died for us all, His mercy supreme.
In Him, and in Him alone, we are elect, so lets just focus on Him.
He created us for good works, to be Holy and blameless, but only possible in Him.
If we love Him, seek Him, making Him the desire of our hearts, that is where we need to start and end, let Him work out the rest. Ours is merely to trust Him enough to keep on loving and forgiving, all with Him in mind.
I suppose, though, if we did that, so many threads would cease to be active or even cease to be.
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