not of works, but created in Christ unto good works
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I wrestled with works vs grace issues for a number of years. In my experience debates easily become circular with some yelling about grace verses and others yelling about pro works verses.
What I found is that when you reconcile all verses on the subject of works you end up with two conclusion.
1) You are saved by grace not works
2) Your words and works become your evidence that the grace salvation has taken place.
The Apostle James believed it and the Apostle Paul believed it. Most of the scripture on works comes from these two.
What I found is that when you reconcile all verses on the subject of works you end up with two conclusion.
1) You are saved by grace not works
2) Your words and works become your evidence that the grace salvation has taken place.
The Apostle James believed it and the Apostle Paul believed it. Most of the scripture on works comes from these two.
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God has promised us a good and peaceful life without fear as we sojourn here in this world and to live this life, we have to do good works in following his instructions in the scriptures, so it is a deliverance we receive by our works. This is where some get the idea that we are delivered eternally by our works. The Greek definition for salvation is "a deliverance". and we, as children of God are delivered here in this world every time God forgives us when we repent of a sin that we have committed.
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Hello Macabeus, what do you mean by, "we are fed off of those works" 
Thanks!
~Deut
Thanks!
~Deut
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Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
I think most of us agree that we are saved through faith, that it's a gift and not as a result of works.
We can only become his workmanship if he is in us as a result of this faith.
So these works were prepared before hand.
Not after we come to Christ but before we do.
So it's not like God is thinking they have believed in my son so now let's reveal these works.
If anyone disagrees with the above sentence then please say so.
Maybe we could look at the works that we should walk in.
What are these works?
After all we may know many non believers that do good works out of love but have not faith.
Do we need to look beyond V10?
Ephesians 2:11-13
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Was there an issue between the Jews who believed in Jesus and the Gentiles who believed in Jesus
Jesus himself said "By this the world will know you are my disciples if you love one another"
James addressed this in chapter 2 concerning sectarianism.
I'm not saying that we restrict works to the church but it does seem that Paul had the address issues in the church as well as James did.
We know that Jesus raised the bar.
Love your enemies, to the Jews.
Anyway I hope I have made some sense but also want to solicit the thoughts of others concerning what these works are that were prepared before hand.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
I think most of us agree that we are saved through faith, that it's a gift and not as a result of works.
We can only become his workmanship if he is in us as a result of this faith.
So these works were prepared before hand.
Not after we come to Christ but before we do.
So it's not like God is thinking they have believed in my son so now let's reveal these works.
If anyone disagrees with the above sentence then please say so.
Maybe we could look at the works that we should walk in.
What are these works?
After all we may know many non believers that do good works out of love but have not faith.
Do we need to look beyond V10?
Ephesians 2:11-13
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Was there an issue between the Jews who believed in Jesus and the Gentiles who believed in Jesus
Jesus himself said "By this the world will know you are my disciples if you love one another"
James addressed this in chapter 2 concerning sectarianism.
I'm not saying that we restrict works to the church but it does seem that Paul had the address issues in the church as well as James did.
We know that Jesus raised the bar.
Love your enemies, to the Jews.
Anyway I hope I have made some sense but also want to solicit the thoughts of others concerning what these works are that were prepared before hand.
Thanks. I don't have a problem with what was said, per say, it's simply a thought/idea I have not encountered before, so I wanted to hear more.
@eternally-gratefull, your thoughts/meaning concerning your statement, "we are fed off of [our] works", would be appreciated brother (if/when you have the time).
Thanks
~Deut
.
@eternally-gratefull, your thoughts/meaning concerning your statement, "we are fed off of [our] works", would be appreciated brother (if/when you have the time).
Thanks
~Deut
.
A non believer has been known to join himself to the church just to establish himself as a good person to his community, or to increase the possibility of him getting a job in the communlty. There could be many more, but I think you get the idea. Satan, himself, we are told. presents himself as an angel of light.
The works Paul is talking about is not obedience to Christ, Paul makes that very clear in Romans 6.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What Paul IS talking about is the controversy of people coming in, saying you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Note to reader: In Romans 6 it is clear these people STOPPED what they were doing, just like in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, none of that positionally righteous while remaining in those sins business that was invented recently.
God is not playing games.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
What Paul IS talking about is the controversy of people coming in, saying you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses to be saved.
Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Note to reader: In Romans 6 it is clear these people STOPPED what they were doing, just like in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, none of that positionally righteous while remaining in those sins business that was invented recently.
God is not playing games.