Trinity haters on CC

Irrelevant. Had you only addressed statements he has made about himself, you'd be fine, but twice you commented on the likelihood of his belief system based on his location. Not only is that fallacious, it's prejudicial.

i know what you mean about bad doctrine, it was difficult for me to unlearn so many things and get back to the bible and get a better honest biblical understanding rather than reading the bible through doctrine filters.
my only aganda is that people should be lead by scripture and not manmade doctrines. something that Jesus taught a lot on when dealing with the priest leadership who were blatantly corrupt.

I totally agree with that...but the Trinity and the Deity of Christ are not man-made doctrines.

The concept of the Trinity is clearly biblical, and the deity of Christ is biblical too.

Of course, you get the oddballs like KJVers who point out that the word Trinity is not found in Scripture, but their reasoning isn't valid because the concept is Scriptural.

Ok, reconciliation of the scriptures matters. There's no doubt that the scriptures:

1. Describe God as the Father
2. Describe God as the son
3. Describe God as the Holy spirit
4. Describe God as being one
Other clear aspects include the position of the son being subordinate to that of the Father. The son prays to the Father and the Father adores the son.
Trinity seem to reconcile the above nicely but falls short IMO because there are verses that are left out.

The conversation that Jesus had with the disciples in John 14/15/16 caught me.

1. The Holy spirit could not come in them unless Jesus goes
2. The Holy spirit was already there with them (disciples) and they knew Him
3. Jesus does not leave them as orphans but comes to them shortly afterwards

4. Until that day, the disciples had not asked anything in Jesus' name (authority). Doesn't mean they had not asked Jesus anything, it simply meant that they had not been adopted as sons because Jesus had not yet gone to the Father or rather acquired His new authority as a Father to them. Jesus had not sent the Holy spirit from the Father or had not gone and come to them shortly; but He also claimed that everything that belongs to the Father are His. Again, Jesus claims He and the Father are going to indwell them (disciples) and make a home with them. This is a complicated way of saying He is the Father and the Holy spirit but had to remain humble in the flesh.

5. In Revelation 3, Jesus acquires a new name. Doesn't mean He will no longer be referred to as Jesus but He acquires a new authority. What authority do you think Jesus acquires?

I'll take point 5 first..where does it say Jesus acquired a new name in Rev. 3?

Revelation 3 1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
To the Church in Philadelphia
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. 13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
To the Church in Laodicea
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
(ESV Strong's)


I don't know what kind of translation you are reading, but I am not seeing any reference to a "new name" Jesus received. If you can point it out, then perhaps I can answer. If you are using some other weird translation, let me know which one it is.

The word "name" doesn't always refer to authority anyways....when you talk about God's name, you are in essence talking about his person, presence and being. Sometimes it is used in parallelisms in the Hebrew text. In other words, in one line, it will mention God, then in the next line it will mention his name.

Right there, highlighted.

Point #4 A new benchmark event in redemptive history occurred when Jesus was exalted, after his birth, crucifixion, death and resurrection. He became the Messiah, the Son of God in the sense that he was highly exalted above all other men. He has reclaimed the Adamic commission God gave to mankind to rule over all things on Earth. This changes nothing in regards to his deity. Jesus is both God and glorified man. As glorified, exalted man, he fulfilled the conditions of perfect obedience that Adam failed to fulfill, and is now the Son of God, representing God, over all the earth and human society.

You also need to understand union with Christ, but you're going to have a hard time doing that as a non-Trinitarian. Jesus has all authority. He exercises this authority through his followers, who are joined to Him spiritually through union with Christ. When a believer says he is doing something in the name of the LORD, what should be going through his mind is that Jesus, joined with him, is acting through him in regards to requests to God, etcetera. Unfortunately, this gets clouded somewhat by Pentecostals and Charismatics who take the name of God very lightly, and claim God is telling them this or that, when it is not God but it is their imagination many times, and uttering false prophecies in his Name, which don't happen and then disgrace Christianity.

Individuals are only adopted as sons when they are joined with Jesus. They inherit his sonship because when they are joined to Him, God views them as if they are represented by Jesus. It is much like when a woman marries a man, and she is then legally entitled to drain his bank account if she wants. There is a legal and moral dimension to union with Christ.

I sent this message prior to finishing it, as I was looking at something else in a message sent to me.

Anyways, like I said, redemptive history has moved along, in that the Adamic Commission for man to rule over all creation, given by God, was lost at the Fall. Jesus, the Messianic Son of God, has regained this commission. Jesus is truly God and truly glorified man, and has reclaimed the Adamic Commission for mankind. Those who belong to Him are joined with Him in union with Christ, and inherit this commission now, as the new creation has begun with his resurrection. If you want to apply the "new name" phrase to Jesus in this regard, I am fine with doing this, but this has nothing to say about his deity. As I have said, Jesus has a dual nature, and I believe you are confusing aspects of his glorified humanity and claiming that he must be man alone, due to these aspects.

A lot of real, Trinitarian Christians are confused by these issues because they have not been taught correctly. They do not have a proper view of the greater redemptive story that is playing out on earth. For this, I would suggest God Dwells Among Us by GK Beale. It would be a good start.

Salvation is about a reclamation of the events that occurred in the Fall. Scripture begins in a garden, and ends in an expanded garden-city at the end of Revelation. The sequence of events that culminate in this garden-city involve Jesus, the Second Adam, taking on a second nature as a man, and reversing the effects of our father Adam.

So, fundamentally, a lot of your issues involve a failure to distinguish between Jesus as God, and Jesus as glorified, resurrected, exalted man.

By the way, the title "Son of God" can refer to Jesus' deity, but it also refers to his role as Messianic king, and representative of God on earth. "Son of Man", ironically, has a supernatural component in that it is talking about the exalted figure of Daniel 7:13-14.

So, these things add to the confusion as well.

However, at the end of the day, Jesus is truly God, and he is truly glorified man. Anathema upon those who teach and actively promote otherwise, and prayers for enlightenment to those true believers and honest seekers who need to understand these things better.

Regarding your remark that the Son is subordinate to the Father, I agree and this says nothing with regards to his NATURE, only his ROLE.

The Son was eternally begotten by the Father. This does not mean that the Son preceded the Father, but that there is a Father-Son relationship between them that has been eternal. In other words, I believe in eternal sonship. It is not appropriate to being eternally begotten to the human equivalent, but just to understand that the Father is the source and the Son is subordinate to Him. Christianity has used the phrase "eternal sonship" or "eternally begotten" to discuss this.

There is some issue on whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone, or the Father and the Son. This is part of what caused the Great Schism of 1054.

There is no conflict between the sonship and subordination of Jesus and his deity. The issue is one of role, and not essence. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one essence. They are not three beings of like essence, but share the same essence. However, they have different roles.

Some heretics who deny that Jesus is God have claimed that the Son didn't exist prior to the incarnation. Some heretics claim that a being existed, but he was not the Son until the incarnation. This is called incarnational sonship. I guess this is considered an error but not heretical by some. I consider it heretical because it is obvious that the Father sent the Son, and the subordination between roles was evidenced in this.

Anyways, subordination has nothing to do with the deity of Christ. No knowledgeable Christian denies that there is a subordination of ROLES, but all knowledgeable Christians deny there is a subordination in terms of NATURE.

https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-Sonship.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/subordination-Trinity.html

Here are articles regarding eternal sonship and subordination within the Trinity.

For those who don't like me quoting other sources, or referring to other resources, too bad. I am not going to recreate the wheel to answer questions. I could spend all day doing that here, and I would do that for honest seekers all day long if it would help them come to faith, but I don't want to waste time with people who keep asking the same questions and really don't want to learn. I'm hoping some pearls fall before those who can appreciate them, though

None of the above addresses what i pointed out.

My points #1,2,3 are connected to point #4 and 5, so you can address them together. Here is what i was trying to bring to your attention:

If Jesus doesn't go, the Holy spirit doesn't come. Jesus also confirms to them that the Holy spirit was already there, living with them and they knew Him. Jesus also tells them, He is not going forever but will come to them shortly.

This is not how two distinct persons work, if indeed, they are two distinct persons, why didn't Jesus just pray for the Holy spirit to indwell them while He was still there with them? Jesus insisted, He must go and then come back to them- He was simply claiming to be the HS, who lived with them, and they knew Him but had to go and come in a form that would indwell them.

Again, they had not asked anything in Jesus' name because they had not been adopted as sons. They can only be adopted as sons after Jesus has acquired a new name, that of the Father and indwells them as the HS. Again, this is not how 3 distinct persons work. Jesus reminded them "in that day, you'll ask and i will answer..".

Jesus initially told them the Father is glorified in the son but later told them that He (Jesus) will be glorified in them when the HS indwells them. He was simply claiming to be the Father here.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer, bringing him into union with Jesus. He mediates the union between them and the Father and Son.

Jesus was with them IN PERSON during his incarnation. They were enjoying the presence of God through this accompaniment. After he ascended to heaven, he sent the Spirit to unite them with Himself.

Union with Christ bring the believer into the fellowship of the Triune God, and it is mediated through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus himself mediated the presence of the Father through the Holy Spirit, too..that is why he said to Philip that the Father was speaking through Him.

None of this denies the distinct personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as the oneness of God.

Sonship didn't occur until their spiritual union with Christ, until Pentecost. When they were united with Christ, they had the spiritual power to proclaim the gospel, as Christ himself was working through them. The book "The Acts of the Apostles" could really be called the "Acts of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit".

Like I said, though, none of this denies the distinct personhood of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Again, Jesus initially told them, "i will ask the Father..." but later told them He will no longer ask the Father on their behalf on that day because the Father will answer them. The reason He won't ask the Father on their behalf on that day is because He is the Father.

John 16:26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

And the Father is glorified in the son


John 16:12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”


John 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

If the Father is glorified in the son and Jesus says claims to be glorified in them, the Jesus is claiming to be the Father. Why complicate issues.

It doesn't deny, it dismantles the idea of distinct person hood. Jesus could have easily prayed to the Father (1st person) to send the Holy spirit (2nd person) to them, but He (3rd person) insisted on going and coming back shortly.

The Holy spirit doesn't indwell them and mediate as if mediating between two distant parties, it is said the Father and Jesus came in them:

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

Again, we get back to John 14-17 and the fact that the Holy Spirit is said to come to the followers of Jesus, and he is called "another Advocate" like Jesus, but not Jesus.

The Trinity is necessitated by Scripture, in order to reconcile all the statements of Scripture about God. Those who deny it cannot reconcile the Scriptural references to the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Nope.
Why must Jesus go for the other advocate to come yet He was already there with them and they knew Him?

John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17theSpirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him,because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

The Father and Son are attributes of one God working as if their were two needed to form his Goverment of peace .Loving authority willing submissiveness.

God is not a man as us never was never could be.. Attributes not multiple spirits gods .One Spirit, one work of His faith as the one baptism of the one Spirit. .No flesh as to what the eyes see.

He is bodily in the presence of God in heaven now. Do you understand the bodily resurrection?

He sent the Holy Spirit to unite them with himself and to accomplish the Great Commission through them until he returns, then he will take vengeance on his enemies when he returns, including false teachers.

Or they reconcile it differently. I call it the dynamitic duo.two working together as one. The limage of God by which mankind was created .
One creation .

Another kind of Advocate. One not seen.

The one seen used as a one time promised outward "demonstration of the lamb of God who had already ben slain from the foundation of the world . Again that which was seen did not profit .Its the unseen work that did. He said his flesh profits for Zero …... we walk by faith the unseen eternal. No value in looking at the flesh of the Son of man ,Jesus who said his own flesh does not profit as if there was going to be another temporal demonstration of the things not seen .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

How long is henceforth know we him no more?

This is Oneness heresy.

Even they aren't that heretical, though, because they believe Jesus was a man during the Incarnation.

Jesus is truly glorified man and truly God. That is why he is able to be the Messiah and to rule here on earth when he returns.

Those who deny Jesus' true humanity are as bad as those who deny his true deity.

Well, who gave you permission to edit the Bible? It says another Advocate, and Jesus refers to this Advocate as "he" in the third person.

Hilarious that you guys have to go modifying the Bible to support your heresies.

Like I've said, you cannot support a heretical, non-Trinitarian view with the Bible.