Trinity haters on CC

[UnitedWithChrist]

It is good, you are accepting that the verse describes Jesus as having the authority of the Father and the Son and the Holy spirit.
This confirms what Paul said about all deity dwelling in Him in bodily form.

Your extra explanation doesn't make sense to me.

John 14/15/16 if read carefully, you'll see that Jesus is claiming to be the Father and the Holy spirit too. Because if He doesn't go, the Holy spirit doesn't come, but if He goes, the Holy spirit comes, yet the Holy spirit was already there with the disciples. He also promises them that He will go and come to them shortly.

Your belief system sounds like Modalism, related to Oneness Pentecostalism. This doesn't totally surprise me since your profile says you are in Kenya. Kenya is a country with a bunch of bad Word of Faith, Health Wealth Prosperity and Pentecostalism/charmismatic evangelism there. I would guess some of them are Oneness Pentecostals.

 

[Noose]

Your belief system sounds like Modalism, related to Oneness Pentecostalism. This doesn't totally surprise me since your profile says you are in Kenya. Kenya is a country with a bunch of bad Word of Faith, Health Wealth Prosperity and Pentecostalism/charmismatic evangelism there. I would guess some of them are Oneness Pentecostals.

I didn't know you are this funny.

 

[Deade]

From time to time someone will message me regarding my belief on the Trinity of God. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and not polytheistic. The fact that there is only one God can not be over stated. I am comfortable knowing that I can never fully understand the Triune Godhead as long as I'm in this mortal body but I accept it by faith.
I thought I would post this visual aid so that there will be no confusion as to what I personally believe or understand.
Feel free to chime in


View attachment 142711

Regarding the thread title: Trinity haters? Who hates a definition, a label? I don't hate anyone's definition of the Godhead. Like most on here I don't think we can describe the infinite with our finite minds. I think the Trinity is man-made and your little triangle defines nothing.

Most of the aggressiveness against it is related to a poor understanding of what the Trinity teaches. In addition, cults often object to it based on their own false doctrines. For instance, Armstrongites teach that they are going to be Gods in the future, so limiting God's nature to three Persons rubs against their false teachings. They believe that they will be added to the Godhead in the resurrection.
Many times anti-Trinitaries set up a "straw man" version of the Trinity which doesn't fully reflect what orthodox Christianity teaches on the topic, and then proceed to criticize it, in order to bolster their position. The listeners aren't experienced enough to know that what is being represented as the Trinity doctrine isn't even the Trinity doctrine, but is an intentional or ignorant misrepresentation of what Christians believe concerning the Trinity.

Some anti-Trinitarians also seek to diminish the full deity of Jesus Christ, either denying his deity or relegating him to the status of a lower god, like the Jehovah's Witnesses do.

So you do not believe you will be a son of God, in His family, upon your resurrection? What aggressiveness are you relating to? The only aggression I see are those trying to defend the Trinity doctrine. I believe sons of God are gods.

I don't deny the deity of Christ: He is the Creator (John 1) and the "I AM" (John 8:58). And He is the only way to life everlasting: 1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

as we know the word " Trinity" is not in the bible. it is a concept that speaks about the Godhead which is seen in the Word of God. We are to approach the nature of God reverntly and with the understanding of the orignal post "knowing that I can never fully understand the Triune Godhead as long as I'm in this mortal body but I accept it by faith." I say amen

I am with you on trying to fully understand the Godhead. So, why do we label it at all? I think "Trinity" is an oversimplification. I mean: Three persons in one, give me a break already.

Can you describe being everywhere at once? That is just one of the attributes of the Holy Spirit, which you can't separate from the Father or Christ. How do we describe that? While we wear this dark glass (see 1 Cor. 13:12) let us keep away from labels.

 

[Noose]

Your belief system sounds like Modalism, related to Oneness Pentecostalism.

The Father sent the son and this is how:

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lord a ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God.

Mark 1:
1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, a the Son of God, b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way” c —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ” d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with e water, but he will baptize you with f the Holy Spirit.”

9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

No Trinity.

 

[Dino246]

Your belief system sounds like Modalism, related to Oneness Pentecostalism. This doesn't totally surprise me since your profile says you are in Kenya. Kenya is a country with a bunch of bad Word of Faith, Health Wealth Prosperity and Pentecostalism/charmismatic evangelism there. I would guess some of them are Oneness Pentecostals.

This is a classic genetic fallacy. It has all the validity of a claim that because your username contains the word "United," that you are a Unitarian.

Please don't make ridiculous and unwarranted assumptions about the beliefs of others. Instead, ask them what they believe.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

This is a classic genetic fallacy. It has all the validity of a claim that because your username contains the word "United," that you are a Unitarian.

Please don't make ridiculous and unwarranted assumptions about the beliefs of others. Instead, ask them what they believe.

His belief system aligns with Oneness theology, from what I have been able to gather. He is in Kenya. I know that WoF, Health Wealth Prosperity and various other charismatic groups are heavily evangelizing Africa.

I'm sorry I offended you by bringing up the Pentecostal/charismatic reference.

Perhaps you'd like to defend his aberrant view of the nature of God, too. He's an anti-Trinitarian.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am also sorry if I offend Pentecostals and charismatics, but their peculiar doctrines are an offense to me. I don't think Jesus is glorified by such ridiculous displays of unbiblical behavior.

 

[jaybird88]

Well we first have to acknowledge that Jesus is in fact God. You have been down this path many times before, so you KNOW there are tons of Scripture that support that He is. One WILL be sufficient here, because you can't wiggle out of it.
Matthew 1:23 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Jesus Is Addressed As Both Human And Divine

We find Jesus being addressed by the human and divine usages of kurios. The polite form of kurios meaning, "Sir," is used. In John's gospel Jesus met a woman at a well in Samaria. She addressed Him as kurios (sir).
John 4:11
The woman said to him, "Sir (kurios), you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water?

There are other times when kurios speaks of Jesus' full Deity as God the Son.

Philippians 2:10-11

So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

So if YOU have NOT confessed (acknowledged) Jesus as Lord (God) you are not saved.

im not sure on this one, Jesus is Lord, the scriptures are clear on that, Lord as in the Most High, is not clear. i would be very nonconvertible teaching someone anything that is not Cristal clear. if it was something i believed to be true i would phrase it as IMO rather than divine scripture. mans interpretation" is not scripture.

i would also have a big problem telling someone they are going to hell for believing Jesus to be a man when thats what the bible says. IMO people are not punished in hell for believing what the bible says.

 

[jaybird88]

I used to be in the Trinity group, not anymore. I don't follow groups.

i remember being in that group, i couldnt even read a bible verse without making sure the group approved of how i was to understood it. quite different than being led by the spirit.
Jesus says if we seek the Father He will lead us right where we need to go, i put my faith in that and dont worry about the group anymore. it feels good to think for ones self with out the group doing all the thinking for you.

 

[jaybird88]

I didn't know you are this funny.

i think what he is saying is that he can not prove you wrong with scripture, logic or plain reasoning so he is going to try and connect you with some boogyman and then attack the boogyman which has nothing to do with you. the biggest problem with this tactic is it will only work in a room full of complete imbeciles cause anyone with half a brain will see right through it.

 

[Dino246]

His belief system aligns with Oneness theology, from what I have been able to gather. He is in Kenya. I know that WoF, Health Wealth Prosperity and various other charismatic groups are heavily evangelizing Africa.

Do you understand what a genetic fallacy is? If not, please go and look it up.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

im not sure on this one, Jesus is Lord, the scriptures are clear on that, Lord as in the Most High, is not clear. i would be very nonconvertible teaching someone anything that is not Cristal clear. if it was something i believed to be true i would phrase it as IMO rather than divine scripture. mans interpretation" is not scripture.

i would also have a big problem telling someone they are going to hell for believing Jesus to be a man when thats what the bible says. IMO people are not punished in hell for believing what the bible says.

Scripture also says that Jesus is God. Read John 1:1-3.

As I have said before, there's no use placing pearls in front of swine, and this is a pigpen.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Do you understand what a genetic fallacy is? If not, please go and look it up.

Well, I don't expect you to understand this, because you haven't read the thread, but I discern he's a Oneness person. I could be wrong. I asked him to identify his affiliation.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

im not sure on this one, Jesus is Lord, the scriptures are clear on that, Lord as in the Most High, is not clear. i would be very nonconvertible teaching someone anything that is not Cristal clear. if it was something i believed to be true i would phrase it as IMO rather than divine scripture. mans interpretation" is not scripture.

i would also have a big problem telling someone they are going to hell for believing Jesus to be a man when thats what the bible says. IMO people are not punished in hell for believing what the bible says.

Romans 10 quotes Joel 2, where LORD is clearly a reference to YHVH.

It doesn't take a genius to figure it out that Jesus is YHVH.

There are tons of other Scriptures using the same logic, as well as explicit statements. References are made to the LORD in a quote from the OT, and when it is traced back to the OT, it is talking about YHVH.

Those who claim Jesus is not God are simply ignorant of basic Christianity.

At one point, my sister was horrified to know I believed Jesus is God.....then she was saved, and proclaiming the same thing. I said, what happened, as you thought I was crazy for saying Jesus is God?

She said, I wasn't saved, and now I am. Praise God.

So, I think there's very good reason to deny the salvation of anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God. Ultimately it is God's business who is saved and who is not, but if someone tells me Jesus isn't God, I treat them as a nonbeliever.

Keep running the same Scriptures through a carnal, unconverted mind and you will come up with the same output. Get a new heart, and you will proclaim Jesus is Lord (YHVH), and bow your knee before him.

By the way, that's another one to look up. The NT says that all will bow their name before the Lord, in reference to Jesus. This is an OT quote, which, again, refers to YHVH.

Those who deny Jesus is God are poor creatures who are incapable of coherent spiritual thought. I could possibly see some younger believer having a foggy mind on these issues, but not any mature believer...therefore I don't think the one who denies Jesus is God is a believer.

And..in regard to the Trinity, I don't think those who defiantly teach against it are saved either.

 

[jaybird88]

Scripture also says that Jesus is God. Read John 1:1-3.

As I have said before, there's no use placing pearls in front of swine, and this is a pigpen.

it says in the beginning was the word

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

it says in the beginning was the word

Correct...read the whole chapter. It defines who the Word is.

Are you capable of reading in context? That means you read the Scriptures around a verse, and not just the verse. It also means that you know who the author is, and who his audience was.

You should read a book on hermeneutics.

I have a feeling how this discussion is going to go, though..typical Oneness nonsense. "The Word is only a Plan and not Jesus"...blah, blah, blah...

You should read about eternal sonship while you are at it. God sent his SON. He didn't send some plan, if that's the line you're going to take. And Jesus was there in Abraham's day.

And Jesus is YHVH.

Get the book Putting Jesus in His Place by Rob Bowman. I don't think it will do you any good, though, nor do I think you will buy or read it. I am not going to regurgitate a lesson on the deity of Christ to you. I have referred to books in this thread that could give a converted man, or open-minded seeker, all the information they need to prove Jesus is God, and that the Trinity doctrine is correct. If they insist on believing otherwise, it is at their peril.

 

[jaybird88]

Those who deny Jesus is God are poor creatures who are incapable of coherent spiritual thought. I could possibly see some younger believer having a foggy mind on these issues, but not any mature believer...therefore I don't think the one who denies Jesus is God is a believer.
.

just curious why you would go to such ugly extremes with all the name calling? is it really that big a deal when someone does not share your opinion, are your beliefs that fragile? i have some unorthodox thoughts on many things and i dont need a group to "OK' these thoughts

 

[jaybird88]

Correct...read the whole chapter. It defines who the Word is.

Are you capable of reading in context? That means you read the Scriptures around a verse, and not just the verse. It also means that you know who the author is, and who his audience was.

You should read a book on hermeneutics.

I have a feeling how this discussion is going to go, though..typical Oneness nonsense. "The Word is only a Plan and not Jesus"...blah, blah, blah...

Get the book Putting Jesus in His Place by Rob Bowman. I don't think it will do you any good, though, nor do I think you will buy or read it.

you mean like taking lots of bits and peices of scripture and putting them together like a puzzle to make a doctrine, i know a bit about it, whats more interesting is you can make a doctrine on anything this way, such as Peter was the one that tempted eve in the garden, snake tempted eve, Satan is called the snake, Jesus calls Peter Satan, it was Peter in the garden!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

just curious why you would go to such ugly extremes with all the name calling? is it really that big a deal when someone does not share your opinion, are your beliefs that fragile? i have some unorthodox thoughts on many things and i dont need a group to "OK' these thoughts

Bad doctrine is like gangrene. It needs to be excised from the body.

2 Tim 2: 14Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. 16But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, 17and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.19But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

Fundamentals such as the deity of Christ and the Trinity are important. And, to be honest, if you think they are minor issues, why do you try to convince others that they should deny these core teachings? Why not just remain silent about them?

The reality is that you want to convince others that you are right. Heretical people are driven to do this.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

you mean like taking lots of bits and peices of scripture and putting them together like a puzzle to make a doctrine, i know a bit about it, whats more interesting is you can make a doctrine on anything this way, such as Peter was the one that tempted eve in the garden, snake tempted eve, Satan is called the snake, Jesus calls Peter Satan, it was Peter in the garden!

Right...that's an extreme example of it. But, anytime we fail to read the verses around the Scripture, and to understand the book, its author, and its audience, we are also reading out of context.