The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.

I get real skeptical when I hear "If you take a close look at the original Greek it means...", and I don't mean any offence and do agree the more we know the better we can speak it, but are we looking at the "original Greek", to find the truth, or do we have to go "somewhere else" because it clearly doesn't say what you want it to? A real question and not a jab.

Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.

Again the exact same thing, no dressed up fancy commentary from people coming at it wanting to see it in the text, can convince me what it says isn't at all what it means. The whole concept that we are not smart enough to read Gods word and understand it, that I need "--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary" beside my bible to explain to me why the clear text doesn't mean what it says. Is this raising not red flags for you?You have to ADD to whats written to come to the conclusions you guys are putting forth. All I can do is share my view, and I appreciate you guys doing the same thing. This is what we are called to do, and I know I always go a bit overboard with saying this but I want to be very clear that I regard this as a debate between brothers, and I do disagree clearly, but I just don't want to come across too arrogant or "nose in the air", as if I'm better or smarter or any nonsense like that. I am just sharing what the Lord has opened my eyes to in love because we are called to do that, and I fully recognize you are doing the same thing, and praise God we can come together to discuss these things.

I was taught the PTR in all the churches I ever went to. I'm down in the Florida Panhandle, PTR is what is taught everywhere, strait up. Everybody is waiting to get called up, and just watching the world go to hell in a hand basket, powerless. To be honest I think it tents to product the kind of "hide and watch" approach, wasn't very effective nor did it have much power in my experience. But when God opened my eye's to the fact that He really does have ALL victory right now, and is seated on His throne right now, I'm not proclaiming some Kings word that "reigns right now, well not really now, but one day". To me this makes less sense than the fact that Jesus is reigning right now until all enemies are made a footstool for His feet. His power is great brother, and that is what I proclaim, the power and victory of Jesus, the hope of the world. The righteous shall inherit the earth, not the wicked first. Right?

Let's take this popular PTR scripture for example:
Matt 24: 36-44
36“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.42Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

See here you'd say (an assumption here, but most holding to the PTR say) that the ones taken were the ones Jesus calls up, but that's wrong, by the very example it's giving in 36-38 by Noah, in the flood who was taken off the earth and who stayed? It was the wicked taken and the righteous who was "left behind", and there is nothing in the verse to suggest otherwise, besides preconceived beliefs. Again I am doing exactly what I said I wouldn't, but guess it's impossible to discuss truth without going to them. Anyway I hope you have a great day brother.

Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.

I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.

I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)

And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!

He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.

Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.

I completely misread what you were saying. I was still caught up in the comment before so I misunderstood EVERYTHING you were saying. What I meant was I agree, but I do still get skeptical when I hear that. As in look deeper into it, because I seen them use that to make the case homosexuality was okay. I am sorry though, I don't know how I misunderstood it so much to get it so wrong. My last comment. New comment: I agree.

There are two main camps of belief with regard to End Times prophecy - those who believe that it is all in the past, and those who believe that it is all in the future. And, they are both wrong - all because they don't understand what scripture is actually saying in a few specific verses/passages/places.

And - this is why this "debate" is destined to "go on forever" (at least until Jesus comes and shows everybody that they are wrong) --- because, both "extents" (extremes) refuse to believe that there is even the smallest chance they could be wrong -- while the real truth is "somewhere in the middle"...

Yes - I believe that the Trumpet events are about 3.5 years and that the Vials represent an even [much] shorter period of time.

The "somewhere in the middle" real truth:

~ God's prophetic "timing" is not short.
~ The Seventy Weeks prophecy is not about the future; it is 100% fulfilled - by Jesus Himself. It is NOT about any antichrist.
~ Olivet Discourse and Revelation prophecy is not all about a future short period of time; rather, it is spread out over a ~2000 year span - from the time Jesus left until He comes back. Some (but not all) of it has already occurred.

The pre-trib rapture "belief system" was invented by two Catholic priests several hundred years ago with the specific intent to "inject" it into the [true] churches and seminaries in order to "throw them off" of the truth. It was deliberate deception. And - man - did it ever work!

^ GaryA, I don't have but a minute here (so don't have time to explain or elaborate on my question to you)...

but [briefly], my question is, do you believe the following three passages refer to the same thing (the same time-frame, and the same events, etc):

--Matthew 24:4-8

--Mark 13:5-8

--Luke 21:8-11


Do you believe these passages are parallel things (that basically are equivalent to each other, in time [in the chronology of events])?


[not a trick question. My personal view is that, yes, they are equivalent]

Thanks.

--Matthew 24:4-8

--Mark 13:5-8

--Luke 21:8-11

Be sure to also look at the small chart below the large chart.