The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?
- Thread starter bluto
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
So we basically agree that the three passages I listed all refer to "the beginning of birth PANGS" (equivalent to each other passage, basically), right?
Consider the following:
--"and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places" [Matt24:7b]
--"and there shall be earthquakes in diverse places, and there shall be famines and troubles" [Mk13:8b]
--"And great earthquakes shall be in diverse places, and famines, and pestilences" [Lk21:11a]
So, [are you] saying that everything from this part and before, is what the next line is referring to (in two of the passages, explicitly) where it states, that [Matt24:8] "ALL these [or, 'these' - Mk13:8c] are the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]." So this would also be true of [as you are saying, and is shown above] Luke 21:11a... that all these are the beginning of birth PANGS [plural], and take place chronologically at the same time as each other because they refer to the same things. I agree.
If you are saying what I am saying, that the above all refer to the same things as each other, then you and I are thus far on the same page (at least, in that we agree they are speaking of the SAME THINGS / are EQUIVALENT).
What I want to know next is, how do we [you and I] see the following text/texts in the same way (as the other of us does), if we do:
Where Luke 21:12 goes on to say [and ignoring v.11b for the time being
], "But BEFORE ALL THESE [before ALL THESE things just listed, including the previous/earlier parts not quoted above]" that the things named NEXT in the text must take place BEFORE those. Would you agree? So my understanding is that from verse 12 through verse 24a refer to the events surrounding 70ad [just like what Jesus said would happen, in His words of Lk19:41-44, and in Matt22:7; and with Lk21:24b following on from there (as a kind of aftermath, or resulting outcome), do you agree?]
--Lk19:41-44 [quoted in part, and said to "Jerusalem"], "For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round [see Lk21:23,20 and Matt22:7], and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave one stone upon another [see again Matt22:7; see again Lk21:20b]; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." [<--and what would you say that clause refers to??]
--Matt22:7 - "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth [see again Lk21:23b]: and he sent forth his armies [see again Lk21:20], and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [see again Lk19:41-44 said to "Jerusalem"; see again Lk21:20b "then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."]--note also that the verse FOLLOWING Matt22:7 [which is about the events surrounding 70ad, when Jesus is already IN HEAVEN], v.8 goes on to say, "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (this "THEN" means that AFTER the 70ad events just described, he "THEN SAITH" something [further, beyond the 70ad events] "to his servants"... what are you suggesting this be referring to, that takes place AFTER the 70ad events? (re: "THEN SAITH HE to" part? This is my second question [actually, third question] to you, within this post. Thanks.)
I'm trying to see if we're on the same page regarding the next portion. Thanks.
Consider the following:
--"and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places" [Matt24:7b]
--"and there shall be earthquakes in diverse places, and there shall be famines and troubles" [Mk13:8b]
--"And great earthquakes shall be in diverse places, and famines, and pestilences" [Lk21:11a]
So, [are you] saying that everything from this part and before, is what the next line is referring to (in two of the passages, explicitly) where it states, that [Matt24:8] "ALL these [or, 'these' - Mk13:8c] are the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]." So this would also be true of [as you are saying, and is shown above] Luke 21:11a... that all these are the beginning of birth PANGS [plural], and take place chronologically at the same time as each other because they refer to the same things. I agree.
If you are saying what I am saying, that the above all refer to the same things as each other, then you and I are thus far on the same page (at least, in that we agree they are speaking of the SAME THINGS / are EQUIVALENT).
What I want to know next is, how do we [you and I] see the following text/texts in the same way (as the other of us does), if we do:
Where Luke 21:12 goes on to say [and ignoring v.11b for the time being
], "But BEFORE ALL THESE [before ALL THESE things just listed, including the previous/earlier parts not quoted above]" that the things named NEXT in the text must take place BEFORE those. Would you agree? So my understanding is that from verse 12 through verse 24a refer to the events surrounding 70ad [just like what Jesus said would happen, in His words of Lk19:41-44, and in Matt22:7; and with Lk21:24b following on from there (as a kind of aftermath, or resulting outcome), do you agree?]--Lk19:41-44 [quoted in part, and said to "Jerusalem"], "For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round [see Lk21:23,20 and Matt22:7], and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave one stone upon another [see again Matt22:7; see again Lk21:20b]; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." [<--and what would you say that clause refers to??]
--Matt22:7 - "But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth [see again Lk21:23b]: and he sent forth his armies [see again Lk21:20], and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. [see again Lk19:41-44 said to "Jerusalem"; see again Lk21:20b "then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."]--note also that the verse FOLLOWING Matt22:7 [which is about the events surrounding 70ad, when Jesus is already IN HEAVEN], v.8 goes on to say, "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (this "THEN" means that AFTER the 70ad events just described, he "THEN SAITH" something [further, beyond the 70ad events] "to his servants"... what are you suggesting this be referring to, that takes place AFTER the 70ad events? (re: "THEN SAITH HE to" part? This is my second question [actually, third question] to you, within this post.
Thanks.)I'm trying to see if we're on the same page regarding the next portion. Thanks.
By the way, the world is going to go to hell because that is what is written is going take place. It's not going to get better, but worse.
When the One who is now restraining is taken out of the way and the church is removed, then the full force of sin will be released and the man of sin revealed. It is the long prophesied day of the Lord and it is coming. Along with the preaching of the gospel and loving all people, we need to inform people of God's coming wrath and the severity of it and how to escape it.
As far escaping by being caught up, rescued would be a better word. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.
Agreed, and that was why He told them "“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak, and when the Roman Army's surrounded Jerusalem in 70 AD, then dispersed for some reason, unknown to this day, and that allowed the Christian's to escape the exact way Jesus warned them to, before the Roman army came back with Gods judgement, Destroying the covenant breakers that called out "we have no king but Ceasar, let His blood be on our heads and the heads of our children", removing everything like He had foretold to usher in the kingdom of God, the grace that reconciles the rebels to their Creator that we just so happen to be part of today. PRAISE OUR KING JESUS!!!! If my belief that proclaiming the power of our God, and His victory and Kingship "Right Now!!!", and seeing that in action in real life right in front of my eyes TODAY, in power just like he promised is wrong, you are going to have to explain why.
I just feel this WWWAAAAYYY trumps the doom and gloom "satan wins first before Jesus brings His earthly kingdom you can point to and say "there it is", exactly like He said you couldn't do" PTR idea. I just do not see it at all without people adding to Gods word with the charts, graphs, preconceived notions, or the "what this word means in the Greek, that really makes it mean the complete opposite of what it says. I just don't see it.
A LOT of your argument it just assertion man, and again with respect, and love as a brother, even though you seem to imply I am not caved because I don't buy into your exact belief. Sorry brother I am saved, a bold 100% Spirit filled, fruit bearing branch to the almighty tree of life, and I 100% do not believe what you do, so you may want to ditch those vague assertions, because they are wrong. Just so you know.
I just feel this WWWAAAAYYY trumps the doom and gloom "satan wins first before Jesus brings His earthly kingdom you can point to and say "there it is", exactly like He said you couldn't do" PTR idea. I just do not see it at all without people adding to Gods word with the charts, graphs, preconceived notions, or the "what this word means in the Greek, that really makes it mean the complete opposite of what it says. I just don't see it.
This teaching that Jesus has already returned in 70 AD is a great distortion of God's word. We are not here to Christianize the world in preparation for the Lord's return, but are to preach the gospel and warn people about the wrath that is coming. All one has to do is turn on the tv to see that the world is not being Christianized, but that it is getting worse, and as I said, this is according to scripture. The teaching that Jesus has already come is a false teaching, period.
In addition, anyone who is also teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, like Hymenaeus and Philitus, have wandered away from truth, that teaching which Paul said would spread like gangrene and that was/is godless chatter. Not saying that this is what you believe, but most people who claim that Jesus returned in 70 AD also claim that the resurrection has already taken place.
Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory to end the age, was not symbolically fulfilled by Titus and his legions destroying the temple and Jerusalem. For this will be a literal event which will take place just as it is stated, i.e. "Look, He's coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him."
I think your teachings are distortions, and agree we are to proclaim the gospel and warn seriously about the wrath to come, but you don't need all this PTR stuff to do that. The wrath abides over everyone's head regardless of when these things happen, am I wrong? I do these things everyday believing just what I do. So No argument here. Now what gets the ratings on TV, and even bigger when do we trust what tv tells us? Ever see on the news how the Chinese Church is blowing up on a biblical scale, no? Hmmm. How about in South America, Africa? Or even here in the US, I don't know about your town, but I'm here to testify that He is moving heavy in mine, and I WILL NOT, in fact cannot speak about satans power, nope. I am going to SING Gods power over everything. He said He would reign until ALL enemies are made a footstool for His feet, holla-boo-ya!!!, and I believe Him. I do want to say I understand your passion here man, and I understand why you believe this so deeply, but I just don't agree and think it's you who are being distracted and not being used to proclaim our Kings victory, you preach satans victory first. I know that sounds harsh, but that's what you preach.
I know that sounds harsh, but that's what you preach.
See this is why I almost never post here anymore, things can just be so overblown out of proportion. I wasn't trying to place "my judgement", on anyone. Only sharing my views and giving the logic of why I think they ring more true than the PTR. But I tried to be as careful as I could to make very clear that I believe this to be a debate among brothers, and that I KNOW brothers and sisters that hold both. I feel the only questioning of salvation in judgement has come from the PTR side, as if the fact I don't believe it would have some kind of eternal consequence. I would not divide over this issue, heck my own church teaches it. I know I use direct language, but I am sorry if I came across arrogant or judgmental. From my perspective I was just sharing and testifying. I do not want to argue like that. I was also locked out for a day because of an e-mail change issue, that's why it took so long to respond.
EDITED to say:
See, as a pre-tribber myself , I disagree that the pre-trib stance is saying "[____], OR ELSE!" (as in a threatening sense). [note: some "pre-tribbers" who get some things mixed up, might be saying such!]
It is the "salvation truths" that would be vital to grasp correctly.
Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]
1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others, but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,
9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] OR we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.
...note that THIS [Grk word for] "SLEEP" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" of v.16).
1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.
So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep"... which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages (like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 [also not a "Rapture" passage], etc).
The problem enters, when (in that, people often [also] do not distinguish certain other passages and so forth) they come to wrong conclusions regarding "salvation truths"... (this is often reflected in their conveying of, and what they hold as, their "end times views," whereas if we should be simply asking a person "are you a Christian?," they might respond with a [simple] "yes"... but you have no clue they think "works salvation" is obtaining that favor with God, or that they believe they must "endure unto the end" [taken out of context] in order to ultimately be saved, etc... See what I'm saying? It is "salvation truths" that must be grasped and understood properly (and "end times views" are of significantly lesser importance in the whole scheme of things; however, like I said, sometimes in the covering/discussing of "end times topics," one can even discern what another's understanding of "salvation truths" even IS! [NOTE: I am not speak of YOU personally! ])
See, as a pre-tribber myself
, I disagree that the pre-trib stance is saying "[____], OR ELSE!" (as in a threatening sense). [note: some "pre-tribbers" who get some things mixed up, might be saying such!]It is the "salvation truths" that would be vital to grasp correctly.
Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]
1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others, but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,
9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] OR we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.
...note that THIS [Grk word for] "SLEEP" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" of v.16).
1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.
So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep"... which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages (like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 [also not a "Rapture" passage], etc).
The problem enters, when (in that, people often [also] do not distinguish certain other passages and so forth) they come to wrong conclusions regarding "salvation truths"... (this is often reflected in their conveying of, and what they hold as, their "end times views," whereas if we should be simply asking a person "are you a Christian?," they might respond with a [simple] "yes"... but you have no clue they think "works salvation" is obtaining that favor with God, or that they believe they must "endure unto the end" [taken out of context] in order to ultimately be saved, etc... See what I'm saying? It is "salvation truths" that must be grasped and understood properly (and "end times views" are of significantly lesser importance in the whole scheme of things; however, like I said, sometimes in the covering/discussing of "end times topics," one can even discern what another's understanding of "salvation truths" even IS! [NOTE: I am not speak of YOU personally!
])
EDITED to say:
See, as a pre-tribber myself , I disagree that the pre-trib stance is saying "[____], OR ELSE!" (as in a threatening sense). [note: some "pre-tribbers" who get some things mixed up, might be saying such!]
It is the "salvation truths" that would be vital to grasp correctly.
Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]
1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others, but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,
9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] OR we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.
...note that THIS [Grk word for] "SLEEP" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" of v.16).
1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.
So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep"... which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages (like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 [also not a "Rapture" passage], etc).
The problem enters, when (in that, people often [also] do not distinguish certain other passages and so forth) they come to wrong conclusions regarding "salvation truths"... (this is often reflected in their conveying of, and what they hold as, their "end times views," whereas if we should be simply asking a person "are you a Christian?," they might respond with a [simple] "yes"... but you have no clue they think "works salvation" is obtaining that favor with God, or that they believe they must "endure unto the end" [taken out of context] in order to ultimately be saved, etc... See what I'm saying? It is "salvation truths" that must be grasped and understood properly (and "end times views" are of significantly lesser importance in the whole scheme of things; however, like I said, sometimes in the covering/discussing of "end times topics," one can even discern what another's understanding of "salvation truths" even IS! [NOTE: I am not speak of YOU personally! ])
See, as a pre-tribber myself
, I disagree that the pre-trib stance is saying "[____], OR ELSE!" (as in a threatening sense). [note: some "pre-tribbers" who get some things mixed up, might be saying such!]It is the "salvation truths" that would be vital to grasp correctly.
Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]
1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others, but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,
9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] OR we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.
...note that THIS [Grk word for] "SLEEP" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the DEAD in Christ" of v.16).
1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.
So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep"... which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages (like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 [also not a "Rapture" passage], etc).
The problem enters, when (in that, people often [also] do not distinguish certain other passages and so forth) they come to wrong conclusions regarding "salvation truths"... (this is often reflected in their conveying of, and what they hold as, their "end times views," whereas if we should be simply asking a person "are you a Christian?," they might respond with a [simple] "yes"... but you have no clue they think "works salvation" is obtaining that favor with God, or that they believe they must "endure unto the end" [taken out of context] in order to ultimately be saved, etc... See what I'm saying? It is "salvation truths" that must be grasped and understood properly (and "end times views" are of significantly lesser importance in the whole scheme of things; however, like I said, sometimes in the covering/discussing of "end times topics," one can even discern what another's understanding of "salvation truths" even IS! [NOTE: I am not speak of YOU personally!
])
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
I always thought those verses meant that Christ died for all of us -
- those who had passed away, esp before Christ came and
- those that have not passed away.
Is this not what he's talking about?
Start back at verse 6 and see where he is saying, "6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others [/the rest/the remaining/the left], but [instead-->] we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober."
Consider that this is an exhortation to believers ('the Church which is His body'), and then compare it with those same words found in v.10 (which "sleep" word here in these 2 verses is wholly DISTINCT from the "sleep/asleep/having fallen asleep" word [Grk word] meaning "DEATH/having DIED" in the prev chpt, re: the "dead in Christ" [physically dead members of 'the Church which is His body']). So, no... vv.6 and 10, here (chpt 5) are referring to identical things; and these are distinct from what "sleep" meant in chpt 4.
Consider that this is an exhortation to believers ('the Church which is His body'), and then compare it with those same words found in v.10 (which "sleep" word here in these 2 verses is wholly DISTINCT from the "sleep/asleep/having fallen asleep" word [Grk word] meaning "DEATH/having DIED" in the prev chpt, re: the "dead in Christ" [physically dead members of 'the Church which is His body']). So, no... vv.6 and 10, here (chpt 5) are referring to identical things; and these are distinct from what "sleep" meant in chpt 4.
^ EDIT : [the preceding verse, verse 5, contrasting "[those] of the night" (unbelievers) with "children of the day" (us/saints/believers/'the Church which is His body'); the "[those] of the night" (unbelievers) are "the rest" spoken of in v.6 ("as do others/the rest/the left")--this is an exhortation to not be like them in their "sleep"]
Last edited:
Look man I understand you are the "pre-trib" warrior here, I know you have all the huge charts, timelines, and events memorized and scriptures that "prove" your view, and now we are just watching the world go to hell waiting for the rapture and escape. I understand everyone you know growing up that taught you (maybe, this is an assumption not knowing you well, so I reserve the right to be wrong about this), respected leaders of huge churches have drilled this into our heads, and believing it I am not meaning in a deceptive way, but do so until this is the total focus of your ministry.
I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.
I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)
And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!
He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.
Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.
I understand that as much as I understand that sitting here and debating it all day long would just waste time and keep two saints from being out here kingdom building. I understand what you believe. Everybody here, that's been here more than a week knows what you believe on this subject because it's all you ever talk about. Also praise God Hallelujah you are serving the King, please, please, please, know that just because I disagree with you is not in any way an attack on your salvation status, or on you as a person. I actually love your love for out King, Jesus. It is very clear and I would never in any way want you to think I'm tearing at that at all. I'm not. I want to make clear that I am not insulting here, I am by no means saying anyone is not saved, or can't evangelize or anything like that, please understand that.
I am just trying to point out a HUGE difference in perspective these two view bring. In one we are helpless sheep in a world run by satan, we are just waiting, biding our time, watching the enemy destroy everything, and trying to point as many to Jesus before He comes bringing His kingdom, (in a way that we could point to and say "there is His Kingdom", exactly like He told us it wouldn't be BTW", and kind of the same way the Jews that rejected Him were thinking it would come, and still do to this day)
And one side thinks that Our King already has all victory and is seated in heaven, on His throne at the right hand of God with ALL authority in heaven and on earth, sat down until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. Holla-boo-ya!!!
He told us the kingdom of God was not of this earth, it is of the Spirit, and is what we are reborn into. We are to therefore go and make disciples of ALL nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. I believe that it's all going under Him brother, that He has all victory NOW, and calls everyone to Himself. That's how I see it anyway, that He is has conquered everything already, and it's now being brought under Him. We are to go make disciples of everyone. Call it "pie in the sky", but I call it hope, and I can give you the same scriptures you use to back your view up and tell you how you've got it wrong the back up my view. See? Pointless. But what I don't feel is pointless and find most important is proclaiming the power of Jesus our King to change everything. I am going to speak His power to overcome ALL darkness in this world, rather than hunker down and wait to be fly out of our socks & shoes.
Can you at least see wear I'm coming from? Since He has opened my eyes to this I have been on fire everywhere I go. Like NEVER before, so I'm following Him. He has me out in the streets doing bible studies and proclaiming His word right here in the office watching His power bring a person to tears right in front of me, and not for the first time. Brother Jesus has already done it and we are to proclaim His victory NOW, not later sometime. You make this stuff so complicated you forget that Jesus was talking to the people He was addressing, just like Paul, James, John, Peter, and the other writers were writing to the people they were addressed to. Yes His word is for all people for all time, but we can't forget full context. We can't just take stuff and insert ourselves in it the way is being done here. It's faulty thinking strait up, but I truly hope you (and this does not mean a distant you in a future generation
) understand that it's in love I say these things because He leads me to do the same thing.
-
1
- Show all
note: "wake [/watch - G1127]" and "sleep [G2518]" ^ ...
I'm trying to get across to you that verse 10 is speaking of the very thing verse 6 was.
What was that?
[a completely distinct idea from that of the "sleep [G2837]" concept being spoken of in 1Th4:13,14,15[16] ]
I'm trying to get across to you that verse 10 is speaking of the very thing verse 6 was.
What was that?
[a completely distinct idea from that of the "sleep [G2837]" concept being spoken of in 1Th4:13,14,15[16]
]
Come on, do you think you know more about Greek than all the translators of every bible in the world?
If what you say is true then why didn’t they translate it the way you did?
ALL of the following refer to "the DEAD [/asleep / having fallen asleep - G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] in Christ" (those members of the Church which is His body who have previously [physically] DIED):
1Th4:13 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm
1Th4:14 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
1Th4:15 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm
ALL of the following, use a DIFFERENT "sleep" word [G2518 - katheudōmen], that is NOT referring to "the DEAD in Christ [those of the Body who have physically died]" and should be understood within its context in relation to what verse 5 just conveyed (etc):
1Th5:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
1Th5:10 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm
[these 2 verses are using the same word, and speak of the same idea (as each other); which is a distinct idea to that which was being conveyed in the prev passage, as shown at top ^ ]
1Th4:13 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-13.htm
1Th4:14 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-14.htm
1Th4:15 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm
ALL of the following, use a DIFFERENT "sleep" word [G2518 - katheudōmen], that is NOT referring to "the DEAD in Christ [those of the Body who have physically died]" and should be understood within its context in relation to what verse 5 just conveyed (etc):
1Th5:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
1Th5:10 - https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm
[these 2 verses are using the same word, and speak of the same idea (as each other); which is a distinct idea to that which was being conveyed in the prev passage, as shown at top ^ ]
Some translations do translate the word consistently (verse 6 being the SAME Greek word as in verse 10... not all versions reflect this).
For one example, here is the Berean Literal Bible translation:
5 For you are all sons of light and sons of day; we are not of night nor of darkness. 6 So then we should not sleep as the others, but we should watch and we should be sober. 7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night. 8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation, 9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch or we might sleep, we may live together with Him.
[see ylt also]
For one example, here is the Berean Literal Bible translation:
5 For you are all sons of light and sons of day; we are not of night nor of darkness. 6 So then we should not sleep as the others, but we should watch and we should be sober. 7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night. 8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation, 9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch or we might sleep, we may live together with Him.
[see ylt also]
Here's a listing of many translations of verse 6 and then verse 10 -
v.6 - https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
v.10 - https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm
But the important thing to note is that v.6 and v.10 use the SAME GREEK word (as each other, because the SAME topic)... and that these together are speaking of an entirely DIFFEENT thing than that to which 1Th4:13,14,15[16] did, and by also using an entirely distinct Grk word for "sleep"
v.6 - https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-6.htm
v.10 - https://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/5-10.htm
But the important thing to note is that v.6 and v.10 use the SAME GREEK word (as each other, because the SAME topic)... and that these together are speaking of an entirely DIFFEENT thing than that to which 1Th4:13,14,15[16] did, and by also using an entirely distinct Grk word for "sleep"
It is important to not wrench v.10 from its context (which includes vv.5-6, ...with v.6 containing the same Greek words as v.10, because they speak of the same thing).
1Th4:13,14,15 has a different Grk word for "sleep" and means something distinct, and within its own context (of words being conveyed there).
No. I'm simply acknowledging the text/texts, and what they actually say (and in context).
1Th4:13,14,15 has a different Grk word for "sleep" and means something distinct, and within its own context (of words being conveyed there).
No. I'm simply acknowledging the text/texts, and what they actually say (and in context).