The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?
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Yes, I agree, the seven last plagues, also called, bowls or vials, are last. But, as I told you and which also logical, if the seven bowls are the "last" plagues, then other plagues of wrath would have to come before them. In the example I used, If I was buying concert tickets and I was last in line, that would mean that there were other people before me. It is the same idea here. Whenever you say that something was last, then it infers that something came before. If I say "this is the last time I'm lending you money," it means that I have lent you money before." I could use a myriad of examples, but I don't think that you truly want to hear it, because it doesn't match what you believe, even though it makes perfect sense.
"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
By saying that the seven bowls are last and that they complete God's wrath, then there would have to be other wrath that comes before those seven bowl judgments, which course would be referring to the seals and trumpets. And if you don't believe that, I would advise you to go back and do a deeper study of the seals and trumpets, because combined they will result in about 75% of the earths population being killed.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a package set which is what God is going to use to carry out His wrath in the last days, which the bowl completing that wrath.
Seven last plagues = Seven bowl judgments
"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
By saying that the seven bowls are last and that they complete God's wrath, then there would have to be other wrath that comes before those seven bowl judgments, which course would be referring to the seals and trumpets. And if you don't believe that, I would advise you to go back and do a deeper study of the seals and trumpets, because combined they will result in about 75% of the earths population being killed.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a package set which is what God is going to use to carry out His wrath in the last days, which the bowl completing that wrath.
Seven last plagues = Seven bowl judgments
Good day RevelationMC,
The reason there is so much disagreement is because of the following:
"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
To put it into perspective, many are getting their Biblical information from YouTube, the internet, false teachers, books written by men and hearsay and then making those teachings the word of God.
The reason there is so much disagreement is because of the following:
"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
To put it into perspective, many are getting their Biblical information from YouTube, the internet, false teachers, books written by men and hearsay and then making those teachings the word of God.
Agreed! 
"the seven LAST plagues" = the 7 bowls/vials
"for IN them [the 7 bowls/vials] the wrath of God is COMPLETED" (NOT, is STARTED! They are not its STARTING point! CORRECT! AGREE! AGREEMENT! lol [had to do it, for McRevs' sake ])
"the seven LAST plagues" = the 7 bowls/vials
"for IN them [the 7 bowls/vials] the wrath of God is COMPLETED" (NOT, is STARTED!
They are not its STARTING point! CORRECT! AGREE! AGREEMENT! lol [had to do it, for McRevs' sake ])
Yeah, I wrote that in response to GaryA, who amazingly tried to tell me that the bowl judgments are the only judgments of God's wrath. So I showed him the scripture which state that the seven last plagues are the bowl judgments and that since they are referred to as being last, then other wrath would have to come before them. He doesn't seem to understand what that verse is saying.
If something is last, then something had to be first or come before. In this case, since the bowls plagues are said to be last, then the other wrath which comes before them would have to be the seals and trumpets.
Jimbone,
If you take a close look at the original Greek language wording of those [Olivet] "til all be fulfilled" verses - you should find that the actual meaning represented is "shall begin to be fulfilled" - as in - "all of these things will begin to come to pass before the current generation dies out.
And, it did! The fulfillment started even before 70 A.D.
If you take a close look at the original Greek language wording of those [Olivet] "til all be fulfilled" verses - you should find that the actual meaning represented is "shall begin to be fulfilled" - as in - "all of these things will begin to come to pass before the current generation dies out.
And, it did! The fulfillment started even before 70 A.D.
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No. The phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to the [things relating to the] "statue/image" of Neb's dream (with Neb as "head of gold") referring to "Gentile domination over Israel," staring in 606bc (and which will run clear to the end of the trib ending at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth in Rev19). [again, the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles is wholly distinct from this phrase]
It is NOT speaking (in this phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles") of "the Church age [so called]," nor of anything like what Paul (and B) said in Acts 13:46, "lo, we turn to the Gentiles," nor in Acts 28:28's "that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it," nor, say, Peter's vision of the sheet let down in Acts 10:11 and 11:5 (re: the Gentiles and salvation). No.
[I believe Neb's "[till] SEVEN TIMES pass over him" is a type of this "TIMES of the Gentiles," where it was said of him, "let A BEAST'S heart be given unto him," etc, in chpt 4 (4:16,23,25,32)...]
It is NOT speaking (in this phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles") of "the Church age [so called]," nor of anything like what Paul (and B) said in Acts 13:46, "lo, we turn to the Gentiles," nor in Acts 28:28's "that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it," nor, say, Peter's vision of the sheet let down in Acts 10:11 and 11:5 (re: the Gentiles and salvation). No.
[I believe Neb's "[till] SEVEN TIMES pass over him" is a type of this "TIMES of the Gentiles," where it was said of him, "let A BEAST'S heart be given unto him," etc, in chpt 4 (4:16,23,25,32)...]
Again the exact same thing, no dressed up fancy commentary from people coming at it wanting to see it in the text, can convince me what it says isn't at all what it means. The whole concept that we are not smart enough to read Gods word and understand it, that I need "--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary" beside my bible to explain to me why the clear text doesn't mean what it says. Is this raising not red flags for you?You have to ADD to whats written to come to the conclusions you guys are putting forth. All I can do is share my view, and I appreciate you guys doing the same thing. This is what we are called to do, and I know I always go a bit overboard with saying this but I want to be very clear that I regard this as a debate between brothers, and I do disagree clearly, but I just don't want to come across too arrogant or "nose in the air", as if I'm better or smarter or any nonsense like that. I am just sharing what the Lord has opened my eyes to in love because we are called to do that, and I fully recognize you are doing the same thing, and praise God we can come together to discuss these things.
I was taught the PTR in all the churches I ever went to. I'm down in the Florida Panhandle, PTR is what is taught everywhere, strait up. Everybody is waiting to get called up, and just watching the world go to hell in a hand basket, powerless. To be honest I think it tents to product the kind of "hide and watch" approach, wasn't very effective nor did it have much power in my experience. But when God opened my eye's to the fact that He really does have ALL victory right now, and is seated on His throne right now, I'm not proclaiming some Kings word that "reigns right now, well not really now, but one day". To me this makes less sense than the fact that Jesus is reigning right now until all enemies are made a footstool for His feet. His power is great brother, and that is what I proclaim, the power and victory of Jesus, the hope of the world. The righteous shall inherit the earth, not the wicked first. Right?
Let's take this popular PTR scripture for example:
Matt 24: 36-44
36“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.42Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
See here you'd say (an assumption here, but most holding to the PTR say) that the ones taken were the ones Jesus calls up, but that's wrong, by the very example it's giving in 36-38 by Noah, in the flood who was taken off the earth and who stayed? It was the wicked taken and the righteous who was "left behind", and there is nothing in the verse to suggest otherwise, besides preconceived beliefs. Again I am doing exactly what I said I wouldn't, but guess it's impossible to discuss truth without going to them. Anyway I hope you have a great day brother.
I was taught the PTR in all the churches I ever went to. I'm down in the Florida Panhandle, PTR is what is taught everywhere, strait up. Everybody is waiting to get called up, and just watching the world go to hell in a hand basket, powerless. To be honest I think it tents to product the kind of "hide and watch" approach, wasn't very effective nor did it have much power in my experience. But when God opened my eye's to the fact that He really does have ALL victory right now, and is seated on His throne right now, I'm not proclaiming some Kings word that "reigns right now, well not really now, but one day". To me this makes less sense than the fact that Jesus is reigning right now until all enemies are made a footstool for His feet. His power is great brother, and that is what I proclaim, the power and victory of Jesus, the hope of the world. The righteous shall inherit the earth, not the wicked first. Right?
Let's take this popular PTR scripture for example:
Matt 24: 36-44
36“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father only. 37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.42Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
See here you'd say (an assumption here, but most holding to the PTR say) that the ones taken were the ones Jesus calls up, but that's wrong, by the very example it's giving in 36-38 by Noah, in the flood who was taken off the earth and who stayed? It was the wicked taken and the righteous who was "left behind", and there is nothing in the verse to suggest otherwise, besides preconceived beliefs. Again I am doing exactly what I said I wouldn't, but guess it's impossible to discuss truth without going to them. Anyway I hope you have a great day brother.
I get real skeptical when I hear "If you take a close look at the original Greek it means...", and I don't mean any offence and do agree the more we know the better we can speak it, but are we looking at the "original Greek", to find the truth, or do we have to go "somewhere else" because it clearly doesn't say what you want it to? A real question and not a jab.
I completely misread what you were saying. I was still caught up in the comment before so I misunderstood EVERYTHING you were saying. What I meant was I agree, but I do still get skeptical when I hear that. As in look deeper into it, because I seen them use that to make the case homosexuality was okay. I am sorry though, I don't know how I misunderstood it so much to get it so wrong. My last comment. New comment: I agree.