Eternal torment VS Annihilation

Not in question. Already addressed:

Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?

Deu_7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.

Job_31:12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.

Then you are positively saying that God (who is giver of all life and breath) sustains the wicked sinner and sin through all eternity by continuous miracle. It logically follows. You just stated that blasphemy continues into eternity. Blasphemy takes place with the voice and mouth, proceeding from the heart/mind (out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh).

Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

You do not seem to acknowledge the words "utter end".

Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

You do not seem to understand so simple a phrase and words therein of "let the wicked be no more."

Eze_26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

You do not seem to understand the English of "never shalt thou be any more", especially speaking to satan (his kingdom), and all those (branches) in him (root).

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You do not seem to grasp the plainest statements of "no place for them", and "no place was found for them".

How much mental gymnastics must be done to insert into the words a definition not found in all of scripture?

You have selected a translation that suits your presuppositions.

Does he have an immortal soul?

If dissenters really want peace, they shouldn't bring the topics up. Otherwise, what do you expect other Christians to do? Listen to them promoting their watered-down and distorted theology?

The reality is that those people don't want peace..they want to convert others to unorthodox, minority views.

I’m sorry but you are very arrogant and ignorant. If anything traditionalist use creative interpretations to support eternal torment. There are only two scriptures in the entire bible that even could be used for eternal torment. Revelation 14:11 which keeps getting spammed here out of context doesn’t even mention the lake of fire. In fact in verse 10 it speaks of those who receive the mark are to be tormented in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels. So Jesus and the angels are just watching this forever? Also if all are destined to be tormented forever than what would it matter if they worshiped the best or not? Also in the context it only says the smoke of their torment rises forever, not their actual torment. The Old Testament uses the same language but it doesn’t literally mean smoke goes up forever but symbolism for destruction. Isaiah 34:10 is a perfect example of that. So the majority here are making their arguments from the most symbolic book in the Bible and are taking it at face value wooden literally. I’m sorry but also the lost prior that tries to make destruction mean ruination is a farce. The poster took a bias source that believes in ECT and used a synonym for destruction totally ignoring all context. Matthew 2:13 says Herod sought to destroy Jesus, did he simply want to ruin him? No in other translations he sought to kill him. Matthew 10:28 says not to fear him who can kill the body but not the soul, but to fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. The context is killing. 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 both show sodom and Gomorrah as an example of what will happen to the lost. It wasn’t eternal torment. Also even ones to hold literally to revelation 20:10 the beast isn’t a literal beast, also if the second death is eternal conscious torment then when death is no more wouldn’t Ect be undone? I’m just stating all of this to give y’all something to think about. The great scholar John Stott was a conditionalist and the great scholar Preston sprinkle who co authored erasing hell became a conditionalist after all of his research. So please y’all get off your high horses with the idea that this is heretical and fear mongering. It’s more scriptural than eternal conscious torment is by far. Eternal punishment doesn’t mean eternal torment, punishment can be anything including the death penalty. Unquenchable fire only means it can not be put out. Eternal fire many times only means it’s source is eternal not that the fire never ceases after destruction. Also last thing the scripture about their worm shall not die is Isaiah 66:24 and in the context is speaking only of dead bodies.

I would like to set this in the right perspective.

1st. What does it matter? Hell exists either way and Hell is no place any right thinking person should want to go even though everyone who ends up in Hell chose it.

2nd. Again either way God is just in his punishment. If God is all just and He is then so are His punishments. He is the absolute moral example. We get morality from observing who God is and we are created in His image giving us a sense of God through the moral code, moral law written within us.

Making God the only one to judge anything done outside the boundaries of morality. So when God judges, he is absolutely just, fair and could never be unjust due to He is also merciful as explained.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

By the time God judges all of mankind, none will without excuse.

3rd. Just for the sake of debate. Good arguments have been made for both views.

One says this:

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


While another says this:

Revelation 20:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

A good strategy when reading scripture is the And Or method as in both scripture build on each other. In which could possibly mean the second death is soul death and this is a eternal punishment.

Either way this is one of those topics that will be forever debated and really makes no difference in the end.

Greetings ContextIsKing,

Just fyi, eternal punishment and the lake of fire/second death are the same, i.e. eternal punishment will take place in the lake of fire, so there is no difference between the two. I would also add everlasting fire. They are all referring to the same.

The scripture that you used above in fact demonstrates conscious existence for both the righteous and the wicked.

"“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used to describe the state of both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning.

Since we know that eternal life is never ending, conscious existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever you interpret for one must mean the same for the other. And I know that eternal life is never ending.

The issue is that, we continue to have many people at all levels committing suicide and that to be free of their troubles, whether physical or mental. The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. Therefore, if God's punishment was to make people nonexistent in the lake of fire, then God would be giving them exacting what they wanted in the first place. And I'm sure that if that was the punishment, many unbelievers would be ok with that. However, when one understands that once the body dies and the spirit exists forever and that God's punishment is forever, then I'm pretty sure that no one would be at ease with that. In that case they wouldn't be escaping from anything, which is the purpose for suicide.

Based on combined scripture, Life and death are both states of eternal existence, which is based upon one's relationship with God.

Life = Eternal, conscious existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal, conscious existence in separation from God in everlasting fire

Good argument but still isnt worth dividing over.

"The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death. "

Definitely not the only reason. If you study psychology there are many reasons and usually most of them are not thinking ahead but in the moment and the emotion. Many suicides are spontaneously committed due to a burst of emotions like anger, depression, or hopelessness.

Matthew 5:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

Of course we should stand for truth. I will hold that line dealing with any issue of soul salvation. But topics like this or how old is the earth or how much water to use in baptism is all just a waste of time, creates unnecessary divisions and I for one am not so arrogant to believe I have all the answers.

Your opponents say the same of you. They also think your distorting this topic. Are you? I dont think so. Your just sharing your perspective. But honestly either view wouldn't change anything. Either view Hell exists and is still a forever punishment. Regardless if the soul is alive or dead.

This is the small issues when really issues of salvation should be focused on.

Are you understanding the context of each of those verses that you are referring to? For instance, are those verses specific to the final judgment, or are they talking about the end of the earthly existence of the enemies of God?
Nahum 1:9 9 What do you plot against the Lord?
He will make a complete end;
trouble will not rise up a second time.
(ESV Strong's)

False doctrine is often taught by referring to verses without understanding their context. For instance, Nah 1:9 you are referring to relates to the Assyrians and the end of their earthly existence. Earthly existence does not equate to eternal existence.
You're also quoting from a translation that suits your presuppositions.
I am not going to sift through all of your references to help you understand this.

Yep. This was the point I had been meaning to come back on here and make, but time got away from me and I didn't get the chance (… though I have made this point in past posts, addressing this same point another poster or posters were endeavoring to make, on this subject).

Just fyi, eternal punishment and the lake of fire/second death are the same, i.e. eternal punishment will take place in the lake of fire, so there is no difference between the two. I would also add everlasting fire. They are all referring to the same.

The scripture that you used above in fact demonstrates conscious existence for both the righteous and the wicked.

"“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The word "aionios" translated as "eternal" is used to describe the state of both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must retain the same meaning.

Since we know that eternal life is never ending, conscious existence in the kingdom of God, then eternal punishment must also be never ending, conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. Whatever you interpret for one must mean the same for the other. And I know that eternal life is never ending.

To be honest, I don't care what people think about me

Maybe when I was a wet-nosed puppy, I cared..now I am old and grey and if they have issues with my views, so what?

I used to be on the Eternal Torment side, but then I decided to rethink my interpretations...
http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/blogarticles/conditionalimmortality.pdf

As they say we can not change others but we can change ourselves. When I was younger I would debate every issue and opposing views I felt was lies or perversion of the Word.

Over time I became more humble and gracious in the right to conscience dealing with issues that doesn't attack the core beliefs like Jesus as Savior, only way, the Bible is truth and God breathed, or scripture on sins doesn't change.

Paul spoke to us using the example of days of worship or food to judge ourselves and be very cautious when if what we are about to say is truly a matter of great importance.



Romans 14 New International Version (NIV)

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.[c]

If you are interpreting annihilation as one ceasing to exist, the answer is a resounding, no.
The bible is clear.
Eternal torment.

In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of Christianity is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed. is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed.

I didn't say that it was the only reason, you assumed that. My point is that, if people truthfully believed that they were going to be punished for eternity in separation from God in eternal fire, no one would be committing suicide. And speaking of "emotion" that is why I typed the words "physical or mental." While it is true that some suicides are spontaneous, that is only part of it. Many believe that they are escaping from their troubles in life and the teaching of annihilation as God's punishment can support that.