Eternal torment VS Annihilation
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You know, Christ speaks of the wicked who will suffer eternal punishment like waste product.
He calls them chaff or dead branches that will be thrown in the fire. They are useless in terms of spiritual fruitfulness.
He displays little concern for them after that point. Why should the believer be concerned about their fate?
More importantly, why should the believer soft-sell the consequences of disobedience?
I have heard unbelievers say, after annihilationism is explained to them, oh well, I might as well sin all I want because when I die, it will only hurt for a little while before I am consumed.
Ironically, though, I was exposed to annihilationism through a family member but I didn’t believe it. When I underwent a period of anxiety and depression as a younger person, I contemplated suicide due to the mental anguish. The fear of eternal punishment actually kept me from doing it. God regenerated me shortly thereafter and I knew the peace of being joined with Christ but if I had believed the false teaching of annihilationism then, I may have killed myself just to escape the mental anguish.
Therefore, in a sense, the fear of eternal punishment led to my salvation.
I suppose some may object and say that unbelievers are turned off by a God who would allow someone to suffer forever. Unbelievers will always look for a god who meets their expectations. That is why some reject God because he has wrath toward sinners in general. This doesn’t match the grandfather god they have been taught. What they need to do is read all of the Bible, not just the parts where God Acts in accordance to their image of him. God ultimately deals with those in rebellion against him in a definitive manner.
Anyways I won’t be found guilty of soft-selling eternal punishment. And, after someone dies in rebellion against God, I have no concern for their ultimate fate. They can’t be helped at that point.
He calls them chaff or dead branches that will be thrown in the fire. They are useless in terms of spiritual fruitfulness.
He displays little concern for them after that point. Why should the believer be concerned about their fate?
More importantly, why should the believer soft-sell the consequences of disobedience?
I have heard unbelievers say, after annihilationism is explained to them, oh well, I might as well sin all I want because when I die, it will only hurt for a little while before I am consumed.
Ironically, though, I was exposed to annihilationism through a family member but I didn’t believe it. When I underwent a period of anxiety and depression as a younger person, I contemplated suicide due to the mental anguish. The fear of eternal punishment actually kept me from doing it. God regenerated me shortly thereafter and I knew the peace of being joined with Christ but if I had believed the false teaching of annihilationism then, I may have killed myself just to escape the mental anguish.
Therefore, in a sense, the fear of eternal punishment led to my salvation.
I suppose some may object and say that unbelievers are turned off by a God who would allow someone to suffer forever. Unbelievers will always look for a god who meets their expectations. That is why some reject God because he has wrath toward sinners in general. This doesn’t match the grandfather god they have been taught. What they need to do is read all of the Bible, not just the parts where God Acts in accordance to their image of him. God ultimately deals with those in rebellion against him in a definitive manner.
Anyways I won’t be found guilty of soft-selling eternal punishment. And, after someone dies in rebellion against God, I have no concern for their ultimate fate. They can’t be helped at that point.
Yes, they are just in their thinking, they desire their sin, and not live according to life, and so choose death. They recognize the choice they have made.
So, what you really mean is that you teach that a loving, merciful and just God sustains, by continuous miracle, [for there is nothing living that does not borrow life from God [Proverbs 22:7; Exodus 20:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Acts 14:15, 17:24,25, etc]; the existence of all the wicked who have ever lived on earth, and all of the fallen hosts of heaven, including the arch-rebel satan himself, through all eternity, and thus teach that God sustains not only those wicked, but very sin itself, thus immortalizing them and it, so that they and it have eternal existence.
Ok, where does God sustain this vast host of wicked and wickedness? In other words, what is the specific place [the location thereof] that this innumerable throng of assassins, sodomites, sorcerers, liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, despisers of good, blasphemers, railers, slanderers, etc actually exist for the eternity that you say they will, according to your belief? Please be specific. If you say "hell" [where is it located?], or "lake of fire" [where is it located], throughout this God sustained eternity?
So, what you really mean is that you teach that a loving, merciful and just God sustains, by continuous miracle, [for there is nothing living that does not borrow life from God [Proverbs 22:7; Exodus 20:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Acts 14:15, 17:24,25, etc]; the existence of all the wicked who have ever lived on earth, and all of the fallen hosts of heaven, including the arch-rebel satan himself, through all eternity, and thus teach that God sustains not only those wicked, but very sin itself, thus immortalizing them and it, so that they and it have eternal existence.
Ok, where does God sustain this vast host of wicked and wickedness? In other words, what is the specific place [the location thereof] that this innumerable throng of assassins, sodomites, sorcerers, liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, despisers of good, blasphemers, railers, slanderers, etc actually exist for the eternity that you say they will, according to your belief? Please be specific. If you say "hell" [where is it located?], or "lake of fire" [where is it located], throughout this God sustained eternity?
Wow, that is a sick and grossly distorted view of God, and I mean 'sick' as in illness.
God's sadness will be the greatest. The 'man of sorrows' knows what is forever lost.
Not at all the same heart or character that inspired these words and sowed in tears, even the man of sorrows:
"... I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ..."
God's sadness will be the greatest. The 'man of sorrows' knows what is forever lost.
Not at all the same heart or character that inspired these words and sowed in tears, even the man of sorrows:
"... I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ..."
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Your answer is in Revelation 21-22...outside the New Creation.
If you want to claim that the wicked will cease to exist, you have to get past Revelation 21-22.
Since they have no atonement through Christ, they will continue to suffer the result of their rebellion endlessly, because they will never cease blaspheming God's name.
If you want to claim that the wicked will cease to exist, you have to get past Revelation 21-22.
Since they have no atonement through Christ, they will continue to suffer the result of their rebellion endlessly, because they will never cease blaspheming God's name.
Death means to be separated from God, who is the source of life, regardless if one is conscious or not. Mankind is spiritually dead by virtue of the Fall. This state of spiritual death ends when one is born-again, and goes from being "in Adam" to "in Christ".
Those who are unsaved remain spiritually dead, whether they are conscious or not.
See Eph 2:1-4.
Those who are unsaved remain spiritually dead, whether they are conscious or not.
See Eph 2:1-4.
If dissenters really want peace, they shouldn't bring the topics up. Otherwise, what do you expect other Christians to do? Listen to them promoting their watered-down and distorted theology?
The reality is that those people don't want peace..they want to convert others to unorthodox, minority views.
The reality is that those people don't want peace..they want to convert others to unorthodox, minority views.
God's wrath is the 7 last plagues:
Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
In other words, "It is done" = "It is finished".
For there were 3 Woes, and in the 3rd Woe is the 7 Last Plagues = 10. Just as it was in Egypt. After the Tenth plague of Egypt, Pharaoh could have ceased, but instead decided to pursue his rebellion, just as will Lucifer in Rev. 20 at the close of the 1,000 years. Just as Pharaoh and all his host was destroyed in the "red sea", so too will satan and all his host, be destroyed in the "lake (sea) of fire", never to be seen again upon the earth. Sin and sinner will be no more, forever.
Rev_15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
In other words, "It is done" = "It is finished".
For there were 3 Woes, and in the 3rd Woe is the 7 Last Plagues = 10. Just as it was in Egypt. After the Tenth plague of Egypt, Pharaoh could have ceased, but instead decided to pursue his rebellion, just as will Lucifer in Rev. 20 at the close of the 1,000 years. Just as Pharaoh and all his host was destroyed in the "red sea", so too will satan and all his host, be destroyed in the "lake (sea) of fire", never to be seen again upon the earth. Sin and sinner will be no more, forever.
Defining God's wrath exclusively in an eschatological sense doesn't jive with the rest of Scripture. God's nature won't change..he is unchangeable..and he will continue to have wrath toward those who rebelled against him.
By the way, are you proposing that God's nature changes over time? This would violate immutability and would propose an open-theist god.
By the way, are you proposing that God's nature changes over time? This would violate immutability and would propose an open-theist god.
The problem is about what "you ("I") don't think". God's ways are not the ways of fallen men. God is the God of compassion. God is love, not indifferent. He will understand of all, that which others cannot understand, the loss of the one/s which of themselves chose to be lost when they did not have to be.
You do not understand the character of God as it is written in scripture, in that Lucifer was once the closest created being to God that God ever made (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28), being personally the representative of God's character to the unfallen universe. The created son that was favoured above all.
God Himself placed Lucifer next to Him.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
God will bring to pass His strange act:
Isa_28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Lucifer was the "friend" that betrayed God in the most indepth way.
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Both Lucifer and Judas are "sons of perdition".
Lucifer will be reminded, in Rev. 20, of all the times before he chose rebellion (without a cause), and admit God is true:
Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Pro_24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
You do not understand the character of God as it is written in scripture, in that Lucifer was once the closest created being to God that God ever made (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28), being personally the representative of God's character to the unfallen universe. The created son that was favoured above all.
God Himself placed Lucifer next to Him.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
God will bring to pass His strange act:
Isa_28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Lucifer was the "friend" that betrayed God in the most indepth way.
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
Both Lucifer and Judas are "sons of perdition".
Lucifer will be reminded, in Rev. 20, of all the times before he chose rebellion (without a cause), and admit God is true:
Isa_45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Pro_24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.
Jesuitism at it's worst. A theology broken.
Mankind after the sin of Adam, being born 'spiritually dead', until one is quickened, being "born again", then if refusing God's offer in Christ Jesus, die the first death, have no spiritual life, and no physical life, then what 'life' do they have, even when destroyed, consumed, burnt up in the lake of fire, in the '2nd death'?
Even using the 'death is just separation from God who is life' definition, means they are separated from that which is Life, and to have no connection to Life, means to be without all Life. They have no "life" in and of themselves, neither spiritually, neither physically.
Mankind after the sin of Adam, being born 'spiritually dead', until one is quickened, being "born again", then if refusing God's offer in Christ Jesus, die the first death, have no spiritual life, and no physical life, then what 'life' do they have, even when destroyed, consumed, burnt up in the lake of fire, in the '2nd death'?
Even using the 'death is just separation from God who is life' definition, means they are separated from that which is Life, and to have no connection to Life, means to be without all Life. They have no "life" in and of themselves, neither spiritually, neither physically.
I already did that, in explaining the verses. You didn't address what I gave. https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...t-vs-annihilation.185771/page-35#post-4009960
I don't think those who go into perdition can affect those in the new creation, but they are outside of it, as Rev 21-22 says.
And I am not concerned with them by that point. They are the equivalent of Satan and the demons. They are not innocent victims. They have rebelled against God all their lives without repentance and deserve their fate.
There is no one who suffers eternal punishment who doesn't deserve it. But, there is no one who doesn't suffer eternal punishment who deserves to be spared from it either.
And I am not concerned with them by that point. They are the equivalent of Satan and the demons. They are not innocent victims. They have rebelled against God all their lives without repentance and deserve their fate.
There is no one who suffers eternal punishment who doesn't deserve it. But, there is no one who doesn't suffer eternal punishment who deserves to be spared from it either.
Not in question. Already addressed:
Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
Deu_7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
Job_31:12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.
Job_31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
Deu_7:23 But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
Job_31:12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.
Then you are positively saying that God (who is giver of all life and breath) sustains the wicked sinner and sin through all eternity by continuous miracle. It logically follows. You just stated that blasphemy continues into eternity. Blasphemy takes place with the voice and mouth, proceeding from the heart/mind (out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh).
Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
You do not seem to acknowledge the words "utter end".
Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
You do not seem to understand so simple a phrase and words therein of "let the wicked be no more."
Eze_26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
You do not seem to understand the English of "never shalt thou be any more", especially speaking to satan (his kingdom), and all those (branches) in him (root).
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
You do not seem to grasp the plainest statements of "no place for them", and "no place was found for them".
How much mental gymnastics must be done to insert into the words a definition not found in all of scripture?
Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
You do not seem to acknowledge the words "utter end".
Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
You do not seem to understand so simple a phrase and words therein of "let the wicked be no more."
Eze_26:21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
You do not seem to understand the English of "never shalt thou be any more", especially speaking to satan (his kingdom), and all those (branches) in him (root).
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
You do not seem to grasp the plainest statements of "no place for them", and "no place was found for them".
How much mental gymnastics must be done to insert into the words a definition not found in all of scripture?