Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women; and Simon also himself did believe, and, having been baptized, he was continuing with Philip, beholding also signs and mighty acts being done, he was amazed. And the apostles in Jerusalem having heard that Samaria hath received the word of God, did send unto them Peter and John, who having come down did pray concerning them, that they may receive the Holy Spirit, — for as yet he was fallen upon none of them, and only they have been baptized — to the name of the Lord Jesus; then were they laying hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:12‭-‬17 YLT1898

Or perhaps just poorly taught (especially newer Christians)??



Agreed.

I believe the debate centers around, just what is meant by the phrase "But when that which is perfect is come..." (1 Corinthians 13:10a)… differing interpretations of what is meant by that. ["that which is perfect"] (Kinda reminds me of the "what happens when?" questions and/or debates )



Perhaps misinformed? Sometimes ppl get something stuck in their head a certain way, and makes it a bit more of a challenge to "unstuck" it. lol

I guess I could go along with "infilling", but not a second, unique experience.

I don't know but I hear that constantly...."you don't believe in the gifts" or even "you don't believe in the Spirit"....it's pretty wacky

Your post distorts the cessationist position, and I believe it's intentional.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today, including speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying in terms of foretelling the future, etcetera.

So, continuationists define "the gifts" as the gifts that charismatics/Pentecostals claim they have..in other words, the above gifts. Is this because they don't acknowledge other gifts that cessationists identify with, including teaching, encouragement, administration, etcetera?

Because, if they claim cessationists don't believe in "the gifts", then apparently they are defining "the gifts" as those handful of gifts, and aren't acknowledging that there are other gifts.

Why don't you believe in "the gifts"?

Notice, folks, that he's claiming cessationists have committed the "unpardonable sin" because they don't hold the same position as him. That's another typical trait of charismatics/Pentecostals....to scare others with the "unpardonable sin".

Actually, the unpardonable sin applied to the Pharisees, who claimed that Jesus was doing certain works such as healings through Satan's power....it says nothing about doubting folks falling on the floor and flopping like a fish for hours, barking like dogs, laughing maniacally, claiming they are healing slightly longer legs while shifting the person's shoe down, claiming to go into morgues and raise the dead, speaking in tongues, etcetera.

So, to repeat my question, why do you claim cessationlsts don't believe in "the gifts" when the topic of discussion relates to false charismatic/Pentecostal behavior? Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts? If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

I think honesty would be one of the characteristics that a Christian would possess.

I believe you are misrepresenting some Pentecostals here. I have been around people who believed in speaking in tongues and they were not the type of people who believe in barking like dogs, flopping like a fish, and faking miracles. These examples are way extreme for many people whether or not you believe in tongues.

So, do you deny that Pentecostals teach a person must have a "second experience" in order to be an effective Christian?

Here's a Gotquestions article on the topic:

https://www.gotquestions.org/second-blessing.html

It is related to John Wesley's teaching and his claim of sinless perfectionism, but is also connected with empowerment for preaching the gospel and "speaking in tongues" in some circles.

I have talked with several charismatics/Pentecostals, including one that I served with, about this. He wouldn't openly admit that I, as a non-Pentecostal, am spiritually inferior, but his words indirectly betrayed it. I have also heard various charismatics/Pentecostals claim that they were spirit-filled people, inferring that others were not.

GotQuestions is not a site that advocates spritual gifts

they believe tongues are not for today

I use GotQuestions myself, but they are not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth

so you talked with several Charismatics/Pentecostals?

really? a whole 'several'?

you do not seem to realize what is going on in the world in general and obviously in the US.

you also do not understand the term 'spirit filled'. you do not acknowledge the fact that the book of Acts clearly demonstrates that even though some were saved, well for that matter so were all the Apostles and those with them, they were NOT filled with the Holy Spiritn and received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as SECOND experience

this is not a 'two tier' system. this is available for all believers

but as with salvation, you can turn around and walk away from it

as you declare youself to be doing

you claim knowledge of something you actually do not understand and like quite a number of others before you, wish to belittle and insult those who are baptised in the Holy Spirit

Your post distorts the cessationist position, and I believe it's intentional.

When continuationists claim that cessationists don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit, they are lying.

Cessationists do believe in the gifts of the Spirit...they don't believe that certain gifts are active today, including speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, prophesying in terms of foretelling the future, etcetera.

So, continuationists define "the gifts" as the gifts that charismatics/Pentecostals claim they have..in other words, the above gifts. Is this because they don't acknowledge other gifts that cessationists identify with, including teaching, encouragement, administration, etcetera?

Because, if they claim cessationists don't believe in "the gifts", then apparently they are defining "the gifts" as those handful of gifts, and aren't acknowledging that there are other gifts.

Why don't you believe in "the gifts"?

Notice, folks, that he's claiming cessationists have committed the "unpardonable sin" because they don't hold the same position as him. That's another typical trait of charismatics/Pentecostals....to scare others with the "unpardonable sin".

Actually, the unpardonable sin applied to the Pharisees, who claimed that Jesus was doing certain works such as healings through Satan's power....it says nothing about doubting folks falling on the floor and flopping like a fish for hours, barking like dogs, laughing maniacally, claiming they are healing slightly longer legs while shifting the person's shoe down, claiming to go into morgues and raise the dead, speaking in tongues, etcetera.

So, to repeat my question, why do you claim cessationlsts don't believe in "the gifts" when the topic of discussion relates to false charismatic/Pentecostal behavior? Do you realize that cessationists believe that the Holy Spirit empowers the believer with other gifts? If so, why are you misrepresenting and claiming that cessationlists don't believe in "the gifts"?

I think honesty would be one of the characteristics that a Christian would possess.

Gotquestions.org is influenced heavily by Calvary Chapel, and they lean toward the charismatic extreme. They don't allow their members to exercise kookiness in services, though.

I am an American and my understanding has been gathered by talking to charismatics in a parachurch ministry. In fact, the leader of the parachurch ministry is charismatic/Pentecostal (part of Assemblies of God) and when I confronted him about what he thought about me as a non-charismatic, he said, well, I think you will come along someday. In other words, he thinks I'm going to get "baptized in the Spirit" and start speaking in tongues. I thought, don't hold your breath.

By the way he's also a KJVer and practices casting demons out of individuals that are simply drug addicts.

It is used as a two-tier system. Go back up and read the comments. One person plainly stated that the non-Pentecostal can't pray in the Spirit.

It isn't just being baptized in the Spirit..there are other two-tier systems demonstrated within those circles...another is declaring yourself to be a prophet or apostle. Pride and immaturity are rife in charismatic/Pentecostal circles, with various attempts to garner credibility by claiming certain gifts or offices. I would never be associated with them.

Yeah, I see "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph5:18) as distinct from "baptized/baptism [Holy Spirit]" (Col2:12, 1Cor12:13, Rom6:3, Gal3:27, etc)

Correct..the apostles had to be involved in the receipt of the Holy Spirit, in order to cause these believers to be "attached" to the central church in Jerusalem. By having the apostles lay hands upon them to receive the Holy Spirit, this sent the message that they were not to form their own separate church. With the Samaritans this was especially important due to the antagonism between them and the Jews historically.

how do you explain Paul?

you do not seem to be aware that Gentiles also received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues

I'm not sure what you're talking about..of course I understand Gentiles received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues afterwards.

Again, this connected them with the Jerusalem church, and affirmed to the Jews that they received the Holy Spirit in like manner as they did, therefore they were to be considered brothers in Christ.

Speaking in tongues affirmed their unity with the Jerusalem Christians...and also affirmed that the apostles were their authority figures. They were not to go out seeking to form their own Gentile church, but were to respond to the leadership of the apostles.

You should read New Wine..it dispels a lot of the Pentecostal/charismatic/cultic kookiness.

Acts is a period of transition. It is not normative.

This is easily evidenced by the tongues of fire coming down on the heads of the recipients in Acts 2. Only the kookiest of charismatics/Pentecostals claims visual evidences like this are still occurring.

the broad brush strokes of 'sloppy exegesis' really are not accurate and not appreciated

to state ALL of ANY group is poor communication and alienates many people

in fact, cessationists who have attended the strange fire conference and or read the book, have been puzzled at MacArthur's all inclusive demonic labelling and deception dunking

Your experience sounds like regeneration to me. I acknowledge regeneration. I don't acknowledge the "second blessing", which is what I'm criticizing.