Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

[kaylagrl]

I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

This is patently untrue. Pentecostals believe you are saved from the moment you accept Christ into your heart and your sins are completely forgiven and cast in the sea of forgetfulness. Nor do the have an "unproductive" spiritual life. Utterly false.


Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

So when they received power from the Holy Spirit in Acts, what was that about? Apparently you have no clue what the Holy Spirits work is. Maybe read it for yourself.



The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

No such thing as "second experiences". Never heard of it.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Election still belongs to the Jews. Gentiles are grafted in.



Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.

2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues".

No, spoke in tongues before and no one "taught" me how to do so. Nor have I heard of such a thing in any of the Pentecostal churches I have been in.


I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Good, here's the answers, no and no. Nor have I seen it in any of the churches I've been in.



Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered.

It doesn't make one "super duper" anymore than it did in Acts. Anyone who says so is spiritually immature and have no clue about the work of the Holy Spirit.


I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.

Everyone is at a different place in their walk. No one has "made it" yet. All are level at the foot of the cross.

 

[Scribe]

That view (transition) does not explain the Samaritans the 12 from Ephesus, or Paul the Apostle who said he spoke in tongues more than them all (Corinthians) There is a pattern that goes beyond transitional theory and leaves one with the desire and expectation to experience the same things they experienced. Certainly, the transition was not to do away with it but to grant it to all who come to him in faith and drink freely from the wells of salvation.

The good news is that God keeps filling those who ask, with His Holy Spirit and empowering them for service, He is willing to turn the world upside down by those who will surrender to him today just like he did in the book of Acts.

I believe the Lord is looking for faith that says "Lord fill me with your Spirit and give me any gifts you want to give me to serve you with even if they are GREATER than what we read of you doing in the past" God is looking for men and women of faith who will not limit God to what they see with their eyes or what has happened or hasn't happened in the past. Here AM I SEND ME!!!

 

[Scribe]

The purpose of this what you call "second work of grace that was for empowering to witness. In the end of the matter. . . Dividing grace as if all believers did not receive the fulness as the result of first believing .It is like that of Catholicism doing respite to grace offering it in remnants . a little here a little there falling backward .

The Holy Spirit which is to give power to be a witness offers no outward sign. The water baptism is of a old testament ceremonial law used when a new priest enter the ministry. it was passed by Levi down through Jesus from Judah (John 3:25) the new high priest.

To be baptized with water is merely a personal desire to be a member of the priesthood . It does not give witness as a confirmation they are saved. Aaron two sons found that out the hard way when they added their own personal touch as a sign against them .They were consumed by the fire of God's judgement . No sign gifts...

Work of Grace simply means it is freely given and not earned. It is separate and distinguishable from being born again. You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be born again. You DO have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.

 

[calibob]

Well obviously that would be true until they looked to the foundation of the tongues doctrine.(iasiahs28) revisited in 1 Corinthians 14:22-23 as law.

I believe that Isaiah 28 refers to Levites who have fallen away from the spirit of the law becoming Drunkards, and hypocrites but keep on preaching the letter of the law. In the text they are being witnessed to by born again Gentiles. I don't think it has anything to do with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit from Acts ch. 2 or beyond. It makes sense to speak in tonguse with interpretation or if others speak different languages that need to hear the message in there own languages. Surely God understands our hearts and minds before we speak in any language. Thus speaking in some mysterious unknown language seems like just random noise and not useful as a witnessing or prayer tool.

Don't get me wrong I surely believe that the gift of tongues is real and some yet not all Christians receive it however The power of suggestion is strong and not all who display what appears like spiritual gifts have really have what they are putting on in display.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I don't care about alienating people if Truth stays intact. (Jn 6:66-67).
Of course I was speaking generally, as there are always a few exceptions. I'm not dumb enough to use a broadbrush.

from your post 23

Another reason I don't stick with charismatics, they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.

that sure does appear to be all inclusive

but don't let that bother you

 

[garee]

Work of Grace simply means it is freely given and not earned. It is separate and distinguishable from being born again. You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be born again. You DO have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.

I am aware of what grace is. It is not the focal point trying to be established.

You use the phrase "speaking in tongues" as if was established as making a noise without understanding having received a unknown wonderment? A tradition of mankind not a tradition as a law of God. But one that adds to it making it the word of God without effect.

Tongues is one of the manners that the Holy Spirit delivered clear prophecy as His understanding. Not that of another man. . God speaking giving us his understanding in all the languages of the world . The tongue of God are words of God. No secret language .The idea of making a noise and searching for someone to interpret it only leaves room for confusion and a false gospel shown by those who fall backward slain in the spirit.

Signs of judgement against them. No hidden mediators. Prophecy the tongue of God is the mediator.

You would seem to by pass the foundation Isaiah 28.laying the ground work for the tongues doctrine

God mocking those with stammering lips who mocked him by refusing to hear prophecy as in all things written in the law and the prophets. They refused his interpretation . . Mocking lips mocking the stammering lips of men.
They had made the word of God to no effect by adding the oral tradition of men. Yet for all that they still refuse to believe shown by the tradition that they call speaking in tongues. Which again is simply bringing the gospel in all the languages of the world .Witnessed as the prophecy of Joel .Pouring out his Spirit of interpretation on all flesh not just that of a Hebrew which he did prior to those who did mock him by refusing to hear.it alone.

Confirm what the sign as a law against men is designed to do and who it is in respect to . Then the rest of the doctrine of tongues God bring prophecy in all the languages falls into place .Having already establish what the sign does confirm .

In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for "a sign", not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14: 21-22 No out ward sign for a beliver

The question is what does the sign confirm . we already understand what prophecy the tongue of God confirms we hear God. Not a noise..

Still waiting for a answer form brother Waggles who as it seems must stay away from the foundation of the doctrine or look for a new kind of wonderment that cause men to fall backward.

Spiritual gift not seen as prophesying yes Adding a oral tradition of men, no.

 

[garee]

I believe that Isaiah 28 refers to Levites who have fallen away from the spirit of the law becoming Drunkards, and hypocrites but keep on preaching the letter of the law. In the text they are being witnessed to by born again Gentiles. I don't think it has anything to do with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit from Acts ch. 2 or beyond. It makes sense to speak in tonguse with interpretation or if others speak different languages that need to hear the message in there own languages. Surely God understands our hearts and minds before we speak in any language. Thus speaking in some mysterious unknown language seems like just random noise and not useful as a witnessing or prayer tool.

Don't get me wrong I surely believe that the gift of tongues is real and some yet not all Christians receive it however The power of suggestion is strong and not all who display what appears like spiritual gifts have really have what they are putting on in display.

None have what they think they are receiving when putting on public display as a show. It is a sign against those who refuse to hear his understanding .Like those in Jerimiah 44 . . . “We will not listen to the message from the Lord that you spoke to us but we will rather do as our own mouth declares as oral traditions of men .

They refused yo get o under all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) but rather seek after the things of men seen. Jesus says they have their reward.

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” (Sola scriptura)

So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds[ to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”(Sola scriptura)

When the people try to walk (understand), they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28:9- 14

Falling backward shows the understanding of prophecy is taken away. Can't serve two master in that way. today falling backwards is used to indicate the end of the sign works.

 

[Dino246]

You use the phrase "speaking in tongues" as if was established as making a noise without understanding having received a unknown wonderment? A tradition of mankind not a tradition as a law of God. But one that adds to it making it the word of God without effect.

That's not how Scribe used the term. That's how you use the term.

 

[crossnote]

from your post 23

Another reason I don't stick with charismatics, they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.

that sure does appear to be all inclusive

but don't let that bother you

I'm not an accountant, so I'll rephrase...
Another reason I don't stick with most charismatics teachers is that they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.
I would also add that there is an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit rather than the message of the Cross.

1 Corinthians 2:2 (KJV) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And before you go technical on me, I stated 'emphasis'.

 

[garee]

I'm not an accountant, so I'll rephrase...
Another reason I don't stick with most charismatics teachers is that they do sloppy exegesis when handling God's Word.
I would also add that there is an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit rather than the message of the Cross.

1 Corinthians 2:2 (KJV) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And before you go technical on me, I stated 'emphasis'.

The spiritual unseen gifts (can't see a spirit) the emphasis un not seen. .no outward confirmation. No such thing as a sign gift. spiritual yes, as a outward sign gift or show no.

Signs are for those rebels who refuse to hear prophecy the tongue of God alone.

 

[crossnote]

The spiritual unseen gifts (can't see a spirit) the emphasis un not seen. .no outward confirmation. No such thing as a sign gift. spiritual yes, as a outward sign gift or show no.

Signs are for those rebels who refuse to hear prophecy the tongue of God alone.

I never mentioned sign gift in this conversation. Are you sure you meant to reply to me?

 

[garee]

I never mentioned sign gift in this conversation. Are you sure you meant to reply to me?

Sorry if you did not mean sign gift I was mistaken and should of read more carefully. nothing personal

 

[Dino246]

Signs are for those rebels who refuse to hear prophecy the tongue of God alone.

Garee, the rainbow was a sign of God's promise to Noah, who was not a rebel. I've clearly addressed this error of yours previously, and yet you persist in it.

 

[Dino246]

So, do you deny that Pentecostals teach a person must have a "second experience" in order to be an effective Christian?

You must have applied some significant torque to twist my words like that.

Here's a Gotquestions article on the topic:

https://www.gotquestions.org/second-blessing.html

It is related to John Wesley's teaching and his claim of sinless perfectionism, but is also connected with empowerment for preaching the gospel and "speaking in tongues" in some circles.

I have talked with several charismatics/Pentecostals, including one that I served with, about this. He wouldn't openly admit that I, as a non-Pentecostal, am spiritually inferior, but his words indirectly betrayed it. I have also heard various charismatics/Pentecostals claim that they were spirit-filled people, inferring that others were not.

I didn't ask you for evidence after the fact. I asked where you got your basic idea... in the first place. Did you read the GotQuestions article and subsequently frame your basic idea? I suspect not.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I believe that regeneration is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and there is no second experience.

Since the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit is the same as the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and since it is the Holy Spirit who supernaturally regenerates sinners and makes them children of God (born of the Spirit, born of God, born from above, born again), this is essentially correct. So what we have in Scripture is:

1. The gift of the Spirit followed by
2. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit followed by
3. The fulness of the Spirit (being filled with the Spirit).

1. According to Scripture the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is SPEAKING THE WORD OF GOD BOLDLY. In other words, proclaiming the Gospel and God's truth boldly. Both Jesus of Nazareth and John the Baptist were continually filled with the Holy Ghost (totally under the control of the Holy Spirit) and they both spoke the Word of God boldly.

ACTS 4
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... [THIS WAS BOLD FOR PETER]
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, [A PRAYER FOR BOLDNESS]
30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. [ALL THE SAINTS WERE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT AND BOLD]

2. Another manifestation of being filled with the Spirit would be manifesting the fruit of the Spirit (OR WALKING IN THE SPIRIT): But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Gal 5:22-25) [Note: The Bible says that the GREATEST spiritual gift is love (agape). 1 Cor 13 which is also a fruit of the Spirit]

The Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of being filled with the Spirit (usually regarded as a second experience) is FALSE for the simple reason that Paul said that not all will speak in tongues: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:29,30). By the same token, Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are as much children of God as any other born-again Christians (and their doctrines are generally biblical).

 

[Waggles]

1. According to Scripture the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is SPEAKING THE WORD OF GOD BOLDLY. In other words, proclaiming the Gospel and God's truth boldly. Both Jesus of Nazareth and John the Baptist were continually filled with the Holy Ghost (totally under the control of the Holy Spirit) and they both spoke the Word of God boldly.

You do greatly err in your understanding of Acts and the epistles to the Spirit-filled church.
The Bible evidence, indeed the only sign given in scripture, of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.
Preaching the gospel with boldness is a consequence of the joy and a knowledge of the truth that one receives.
A new convert becomes zealous through the experience of being infilled with the Spirit of truth and goes forth to share
the good news with their family, friends and colleagues.

Speaking in a new tongue > praying in tongues > praying in the Holy Spirit >
this is upheld in the numerous gifts of prophecy (a gift of the Holy Spirit in the Spirit-filled church) whereby God speaking
directly to us reaffirms the purpose and value of praying in tongues to Him.
God explains to us of the power and work of this miraculous spiritual language he gives to the saints and how by the Holy Spirit
we pray for so much more than we know or understand.

Jesus himself said that believers shall speak in new tongues. He is Lord and I am his disciple ... so I too speak in tongues in
obedience to the gospel once delivered unto the saints.

 

[Waggles]

The Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of being filled with the Spirit (usually regarded as a second experience) is FALSE for the simple reason that Paul said that not all will speak in tongues: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Cor 12:29,30). By the same token, Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians are as much children of God as any other born-again Christians (and their doctrines are generally biblical).

Again you do greatly err in your explanation of the scriptures concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church:
there are nine gifts distributed to the body of Christ - 1Corinthians 12

Paul is writing an epistle to a Spirit-filled church at Corinth that is out of order and explains the principles of orderly worship.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to
the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another
various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Corinthian 12:
So in the church there are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed; three of which are voice gifts
for use at worship meetings and to be conducted in a proper manner. (refer 1Corinthians 14 on how to do this).

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles,
then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Corinthians 12:
Paul is teaching us that in a Pentecostal congregation that not every body exercise the same gifts for use in the body of Christ;
we cannot all be feet or all be hands, but need all the other parts of our body.
Some people have the gift of wisdom from time to time and speak Godly counsel;
some have the gift of knowledge and become great pastors or lay teachers;
many use the gift of healing with boldness and lay hands on the sick so that they can be healed;
Not everybody is a prophet through the gift of prophecy at meetings.

 

[Waggles]

2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others,
than ten thousand words in a tongue.
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues,
and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
[here is a clear reference that all the members of the church at Corinth could and did pray in tongues]
26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation,
a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three,
and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.
[maximum of nine voice gifts - of which some members of the church are used for two of the gifts;
therefore not all interpret; not all prophesy and not all speak in an unknown tongue at meetings]
33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
1Corinthians 14:

And that is how we do it in my Pentecostal church - The Revival Fellowship.

 

[notuptome]

Work of Grace simply means it is freely given and not earned. It is separate and distinguishable from being born again. You do NOT have to speak in tongues to be born again. You DO have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues.

Holy Spirit baptism is the new birth. Titus 3:5 There are many fillings with the Holy Spirit but only one baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs at the time of salvation.

You do not speak in tongues to speak with God. Our intercessor Christ was made like us that He would intercede for us before the Father in heaven. Tongues ended as the scriptures reveal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You must have applied some significant torque to twist my words like that.


I didn't ask you for evidence after the fact. I asked where you got your basic idea... in the first place. Did you read the GotQuestions article and subsequently frame your basic idea? I suspect not.

No, I didn't. I got my opinions from interacting with Pentecostals/charismatics who are claiming their spiritual superiority due to being "spirit-filled", and treating non-Pentecostals/charismatics as inferior believers. All you have to do is read the above comments to see that some hold this view.

By the way, I find it comical that you guys are denying this is a factor within Pentecostal/charismatic circles seeing as your fellow Pentecostals/charismatics are expressing this view in the same thread. Such as the guy who said that we can't "pray in the spirit" so we are inferior.