Not By Works

I just reread your post so sad really!!

I agree I put one person on ignore on another thread and asked they not respond to me wow amazing how that helps!!

I felt very targeted, that is when I knew there was only one solution.

It is hard when reads such false teaching not to respond, but thing is we want to reason through the belief with the person, and they make it personal.

I look at it this way
When they get personal. And resort to attacks and the things they do, They have lost their standing and integrity, no one would listen to them anyway (except maybe those who already agree with them and join them)

I mean thnk about it, Who as a person looking for God is going to listen to them?

Sad because when people have challenged me, is when I really have done the leg work and realized where I had an incorrect doctrine or when I was believing man made doctrine.

The only doctrine that will get me a little more emotionally invested in the debate, is the doctrine we can loose our salvation or that works are a part of salvation, because I feel like it is a direct attack on the the heart of the Gospel.

Thats why this can be a good resource.

It is good to be challneged.. I have seen and learn alot because of that

But when people start to attack because they can not challenge with the word. Then it is out of line and no longer is usefull. All it does is get people fighting which is never good

There is a problem, the argument of easy believism has chosen to make enemies of those they
call legalists. So the polarisation in innate in their belief system, and in this belief system they
hold the truth that everyone is a sinner, and only they accept Jesus forgives them while they sin.

Interestingly this is a true extrapolation of sin forgiven, past, present and future. And it resolves
the issue how can you feel sorrow for sin that is already resolved and forgiven. But for me this
is why I cannot accept an idea which says the sin that has not happened is already forgiven, because
this negates responsibility or the rebellion involved.

Again I have to jump in, new believer absolutely can bare fruit by thier testimony, and it can be powerful because rebirth is powerful, because our God is powerful. I know I wanted to scream my testimony from the rooftops. Look at my first comments here ever. I came here looking to share it.
My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read.
I think the power of God is too big to box, but we are in Christ or not, we can please Him or not. That's All I see being claimed. There's just too much history between you guys. Again I say that as someone that has found myself in the same back and forth with some here.

How cannot the proof of ones heart change not be part of salvation?
Paul declared we are saved because we confess. He wanted to see the fruit of faith to know
it had taken hold before he was happy something had actually happened.

A pastor wants to know what to water and feed and what is dead. Their time is limited so such
decisions are important.

There are two groups of people. Those who like to sit on the side lines and those who actually
are interested in the response. Do we not want those who are like the good soil, who sprout and
grow in the Lord and are fruitful. If we are dominated by trauma and failure, we will have no time
left for our main focus. And there is no shortage of those who will use up all the resources we have
and need more, if they are given an opportunity.

I got to laugh. I saw one discussion where two individuals got going and all guns were blazing.
One party was above, and the other a victim, who almost got pushed over the edge.

And no one here has standing, they are what they share. So the groups support and encourage
those they agree with, and think the others are terrible in one way or the other.

A classic was calling one individual caring, showing the fruit of the spirit, but spirited in their
defence of the gospel. To me it was more like talking to a mafia boss, as they appeared to their
friends and then to see them when riled. It is very educational, because people can get flattered
and blinkered, even though it is just favouritism, and we are called to be the same to all.

Now I share because these issues matter, and refining their reality is very helpful. So things I would
not be doing without this interplay, and I could not ever have imagined the responses some give,
ever, because for me they are self defeating. So God bless you all, because God is His will uses everything
for His purposes, Amen

I agree. but, the issue between he-who-shall-not-named is and me- he wants to time frame fruit bearing, when Scripture does not.

for example , some come to Christ, and quit drug and alcohol addictions immediately , while some struggle for years to finally get clean.

is one more " saved " than the other? I say it is not our place to judge that. the unnamed one says otherwise.

So you think it is alright to lie or do you think it is a sin to challenge a lie?

GB9 the king of strawman argumentation. He has a whole army of scarecrows.

LET IT GO!! PLEASE..or I just may have to leave this thread permanently Because it is getting on MY nerves!

Hey guys EG says it is getting on his nerves so we should not discuss things that are important
in scripture and love and honour those in the discussion.

A hard heart is like a stone wall, nothing get through. But I trust Jesus in His wisdom, through the cross
and His love can reach all. There is always hope while people walk in Christ, FHA, faith, heart, action
righteousness, the salt of the earth.

96 To all perfection I see a limit; but your commands are boundless.
97 Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long.
98 Your commands make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me.
Psalm 119

4 For great is your love, higher than the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
5 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens, and let your glory be over all the earth.
6 Save us and help us with your right hand, that those you love may be delivered.
Psalm 108

As God has already forgiven their lies, what does one more matter, it is already forgiven.
They do not know he biblical definition of sin, and so destroy themselves without knowing it.
Without a foundation in Christ, in purity, holiness and righteousness, they have nothing to reference,
and pointing out their sin, for them is the work of satan. Little wonder nothing get through,
and how could it ever?

DC repeatedly called me a liar, called people stupid on several occasions, and issued false accusation against Argueless. And I am not only calling him out, I am calling you out, (for demanding post number for accusation from Naybor Bear, and not providing one for me), GB9 for numerous false accusations, Under Grace for egregiously misrepresenting my position, and Budman for his false accusations based on a faulty definition of "inspection"

Where did I put a stopwatch on how long one takes to start bearing fruit?

Sin seems to be a difficult nut to crack, but then maybe we have too many unbelievers here.
This is a brilliant definition of what sin is

Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil.

◄ 5771. avon ► - Hebrew
‘ă·wōn - iniquity(sin) - Proverbs 16:6
fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment of iniquity, sin
Or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 51:7) {aw-vone'}; from avah; perversity, i.e. (moral) evil -- fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.
STRONGS NT 266: ἁμαρτία - Greek
hamartiōn - sins 1 John 2:2
ἁμαρτία, (ας, ἡ (from 2 aorist ἁμαρτεῖν, as ἀποτυχία from ἀποτύχειν), a failing to hit the mark (see ἁμαρτάνω. In Greek writings (from Aeschylus and Thucydides down). 1st, an error of the understanding (cf. Ackermann, Das Christl. im Plato, p. 59 Anm. 3 (English translation (S. R. Asbury, 1861), p. 57 n. 99)). 2nd, a bad action, evil deed. In the N. T. always in an ethical sense, and
1. equivalent to τό ἁμαρτάνειν a sinning, whether it occurs by omission or commission, in thought and feeling or in speech and action
2. that which is done wrong, committed or resultant sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act (ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστιν ἡ ἀνομία, 1 John 3:4);
a. generally: James 1:15; John 8:46 (where ἁμαρτία must be taken to mean neither error, nor craft by which Jesus is corrupting the people, but sin viewed generally, as is well shown by Lücke at the passage and Ullmann in the Studien und Kritiken for 1842, p. 667ff (cf. his Sündlosigkeit Jesu, p. 66ff (English translation of the 7th edition, p. 71f)); the thought is, 'If anyone convicts me of sin, then you may lawfully question the truth and divinity of my doctrine, for sin hinders the perception of truth');

Repentance, how to deal with Sin

Repentance

Paul is quite simple about repentance
"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Act 26:20

For those who want to know what repent means look into the history of Israel, the old testament
and Hebrew

Four Steps of Repentance Teshuvah:

1 Forsake the sin (Prov. 28:13). "Sincere repentance is demonstrated when the same temptation to sin, under the same conditions, is resolutely resisted" (Talmud Yoma 86b). Note that according to traditional Jewish views, the atonement is of no avail without repentance (Midrash Sifra). [shuv/strepho]

2 Regret the breach in your relationship with God and others (Psalm 51). [nacham/metanoia]

3 Confess the truth and make amends with those we have harmed (Prov. 28:13; 1 John 1:9; James 5:16, Matt. 5:23-4). Note that we must ask for mechilah (forgiveness from others) before receiving selichah (forgiveness from God). [shuv/strepho]

4 Accept your forgiveness and move forward with the LORD through faith (Phil. 3:13-14; 1 John 1:9). Be comforted by the Presence of the LORD in your life: Nachumu: "Comfort ye my people" (Isa. 40:1). [nacham/metanoia].

Finally, it needs to be said that authentic repentance is a lifestyle, not a "one time deal." We never get past it. Although there is certainly spiritual progress as we walk in grace, all genuine progress comes through ongoing teshuvah. We may repent from a certain action at a given point in time, but that does not mean that no longer need to do teshuvah. Teshuvah is perpetual and timeless, since it corresponds to our spiritual rather than our temporal lives (i.e., chayei olam rather than chayei sha'ah). Indeed, a true penitent is called baal teshuvah , a "master of returning," who is always turning away from self and toward God. We never get beyond the call to "repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). That is why the season of teshuvah is always timely. The message of Elul and the High Holidays is meant to be carried over throughout the rest of the year.

Many heretical teachers call repentance nothing to do with sin or turning to God and walking

in His ways, but they are simply wrong and founding their whole theology on a miss understanding

of the greek word metanoia

In the case of metanoia μετάνοια Bauer, BAGD says the following:

"repentance, turning about, conversion" as a turning away, (from sin). Also the positive aspects of repentance as turning towards God.

"For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." 2 Cor. 7:10

It is not just changing your approach in your mind.
Jesus tells it like this

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:22

Who is Jesus calling to come to repentance?
Sinners! Because sinners are the ones who are called!
Paul is clear that repentance involved grief.

"As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us." 2 Cor. 7:9

And who is this repentance towards? Paul is clear that repentance has to do with God!

"how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house,21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21-21

Sadly many will dismiss the definition of sin and repentance and follow their own faith.
But God remains the same and the cross testifies to both victory and the way. Amen

And this is your second line of evidence when I asked for posts that show that I wanted to know how long it takes to bear fruit?