Why is the end times so important?

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cobalt1959

cobalt1959

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preston39 said:
I find flaws in most of them.

However, the three elements for eternal salvation are;
1 We must repent of our sins
2 We must be baptized
3 We must live a righteous life.

These are presented in the KJV ...clearly.
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No, they are presented in language most people today no longer understand and no longer speak.

Every credible Bible translation presents those three concepts. Any of those three concepts can be readily understood from any more modern English translation. There is no magic Bible translation that is the only one allowed. A wise person uses many translation to get the real meaning out of any passage. The KJV has a few flaws in it. Every single translation does because there is no such thing as an "Inspired" translation. Only the original autographs are inspired. We have more texts to work from now, than they did in the 16th and 17th centuries. When Erasmus was working on the Textus Receptus, in some cases, he had no Greeks texts of a few New Testament books at all, or he only had fragments to work from. So he reverse-engineered those portions from the Latin Vulgate into Greek. Not a criticism, but that was not a good idea. Since the KJV was derived from the Textus Receptus, those books in the KJV are somewhat suspect, for that reason. I have my grandfathers 1967 Scofield KJV that he used to preach out of. I have my grandmothers 1964 Thompson Chain reference KJV. I have KJV that belonged to my parents. I still use these Bibles, and since I was raised with a KJV, using one isn't a problem for me. But no one today, who is a new Christian should be told to try and struggle with a KJV Bible. Everyone should use a translation they like and are comfortable with, as long as it is not some whacked translation like the New World Translation which was written specifically to support Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine. I prefer the KJV, the original NIV, (not the later re-writes) the ESV, and the NAS. I don't have every available English translation, but I have most of them.
 
cobalt1959

cobalt1959

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#122
preston39 said:
I find flaws in most of them.

However, the three elements for eternal salvation are;
1 We must repent of our sins
2 We must be baptized
3 We must live a righteous life.

These are presented in the KJV ...clearly.
Click to expand...
No, they are presented in language most people today no longer understand and no longer speak.

Every credible Bible translation presents those three concepts. Any of those three concepts can be readily understood from any more modern English translation. There is no magic Bible translation that is the only one allowed. A wise person uses many translation to get the real meaning out of any passage. The KJV has a few flaws in it. Every single translation does because there is no such thing as an "Inspired" translation. Only the original autographs are inspired. We have more texts to work from now, than they did in the 16th and 17th centuries. When Erasmus was working on the Textus Receptus, in some cases, he had no Greeks texts of a few New Testament books at all, or he only had fragments to work from. So he reverse-engineered those portions from the Latin Vulgate into Greek. Not a criticism, but that was not a good idea. Since the KJV was derived from the Textus Receptus, those books in the KJV are somewhat suspect, for that reason.
Nehemiah6 said:
Because ALL modern versions are even more flawed.

They are corruptions derived from corrupted manuscripts.

Please consult the King James 2000 Bible for an updated KJV (not the NKJV).
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Going by that logic, no one should be using any translation.

The KJV is not inspired. Never has been, never will be. There is no reason that anyone should be told they are restricted to using one single English translation. Unless the person advocating that has some whacked doctrine that requires it.
 
cobalt1959

cobalt1959

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TheDivineWatermark said:
As a futurist (and pre-tribber), myself, I am not expecting another "garden of Eden," and believe that anyone who is expecting that has set their sights "too low" ;) He is not taking us back to the "garden of Eden" ;) Anyone who thinks or says such a thing is (IMO) not well-taught. ;)
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One of the reasons why the study of Eschatology is so important today is so one can spot End-times cons. This thread is a cornucopia of false End-times doctrine.

"Jesus returned in 70 AD!"
"Satan and the angels are locked up!"
"There's no millennial reign!"

Etc., etc., etc.

These doctrines are dangerous because they directly call God a liar. They say that God does not keep His word. All of them also blatantly re-write or completely dismiss large blocks of scripture. Then you have some of these same people telling us that you can only use the KJV, they don't sin anymore, they are pre-destined and other tripe. False doctrine is more prevalent today than it has ever been. Most of these end-times false doctrines all rotate around the false concept that the Bible is just allegory so you can basically re-write it to support anything you either want to believe, or already believed. Allegory itself was invented specifically to rob prophecy from Israel and transfer it to the Church. That may work for the people who erroneously believe it, but it doesn't work in real life, and it doesn't work with God. Preterism is like metastasized cancer. A doctrinal tumor that replaces healthy doctrine. Preterist may as well toss their Bible in the trash and just go off of what their particular sect teaches because they certainly don't need it.
 
tanakh

tanakh

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delirious said:
Yes, maybe even more. I don't know the exact percentage but there is between 250 and 400 references to the Old Testament. I have never tried to count it but those are the numbers I have heard. You have to understand the OT to understand Revelation.

For example, the new heavens and earth. It is not a physical place. It's Christ's kingdom and the church.

The new heavens and earth is mentioned in Isaiah 65 & 66 and Rev 21 & 22. We need to look at all four chapters to get a complete picture of what the new heavens and earth really is. What do we find described there?

In Isaiah 65: 1-16 we see rebellious old covenant Israel described and God saying He will call His people by a new name (Gentiles) and destroy the rebellious Jews/Israelites which He did in 70 A.D.

In verse 17 he introduces the new heavens and earth and in verse 18 he explains what it is. A Jerusalem whose is a rejoicing and her people a joy. In Galatians 4: 22-31 Paul touches on this beautifully. The Jerusalem above is us. The Jerusalem below is rebellious Israel.

What do we see in Revelation 21? We don't see a remade physical universe. Almost the whole chapter is dedicated to describing the church/the Lamb's bride/New Jerusalem.

The old heavens and earth passed away in 70 A.D. That was when rebellious old covenant Israel and the fallen principalities and powers (fallen angels that rebelled with Satan) were destroyed by Christ's second coming. A spiritual coming.

The new heavens and earth has been in existence since then. That is Christ and the departed saints ruling with Him forever in heaven (new heavens) and the church on earth (new earth/new Jerusalem). It is spiritual.

My fellow Christians for 2,000 years have been looking for a future second coming that is physical. A remade universe turned into a utopia/garden of Eden. Christ said His kingdom was within us and did not come with observation (Luke 17: 20-21). It is spiritual.

One day I hope my fellow Christians will understand this. Christ already came back in 70 A.D. The second coming. Jesus said it 7 times Himself (Matt 16: 27-28, Mark 8: 38-9: 1, Luke 9: 26-27, Matt 24: 34, Mark 13: 30, Luke 21: 31-32, Matt 10: 23). It is all over the NT.
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I agree with much of what you say but Christ did not come in 70AD in the way most Christians believe. There was no last Judgement
no resurrection or a new heaven and a new earth. AD70 marks the end of the Old Testament age. God came in judgement of Israel
using Rome and its allies as his means to achieve it in the same way he used Assyria and Babylon. The language used to describe this
is the same used in other places where God warns of coming judgement on Israel and nations such as Egypt and Edom. It says he comes with clouds and the Sun and Moon fall from heaven. Prophecy often has multiple applications and is used as types of the ultimate consummation of Gods plan for humanity.
 
cobalt1959

cobalt1959

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tanakh said:
I agree with much of what you say but Christ did not come in 70AD in the way most Christians believe. There was no last Judgement
no resurrection or a new heaven and a new earth. AD70 marks the end of the Old Testament age. God came in judgement of Israel
using Rome and its allies as his means to achieve it in the same way he used Assyria and Babylon. The language used to describe this
is the same used in other places where God warns of coming judgement on Israel and nations such as Egypt and Edom. It says he comes with clouds and the Sun and Moon fall from heaven. Prophecy often has multiple applications and is used as types of the ultimate consummation of Gods plan for humanity.
Click to expand...
I would add that fulfillment of scriptural prophecy when it comes to Jesus' return requires a visible return, witnessed virtually by the entire world. No such thing happened in 70 AD, which means Jesus did not come back in 70 AD. Every time a person declares that Jesus return is a spiritual one, you right away know something hinkey is going on.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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tanakh said:
I agree with much of what you say but Christ did not come in 70AD in the way most Christians believe. There was no last Judgement
no resurrection or a new heaven and a new earth. AD70 marks the end of the Old Testament age. God came in judgement of Israel
using Rome and its allies as his means to achieve it in the same way he used Assyria and Babylon. The language used to describe this
is the same used in other places where God warns of coming judgement on Israel and nations such as Egypt and Edom. It says he comes with clouds and the Sun and Moon fall from heaven. Prophecy often has multiple applications and is used as types of the ultimate consummation of Gods plan for humanity.
Click to expand...
When we read:

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt.24:29-30

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. " - Rev.1:7

There is no figurative meaning regarding the scriptures above. When He returns to the earth to end the age, every eye will see Him and will mourn because of Him, just as the scripture states in both Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7.

In further support of this, Jesus warns the inhabitants of the earth about false Messiah's and how to tell the difference between the false one's and the real one arrives. He does this by saying:

"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out to look; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

The above demonstrates a literal, visual, appearing of Christ arriving on the clouds of the sky and His angels with Him, as a means to identifying the true Messiah. You can't do that if Jesus' appearing is interpreted to be figurative of Titus and his Roman legions destroying Jerusalem and the temple.

The prophesies stating that a there will be a great earthquake, the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light, is exactly what is going to take place. There is no figurative speech in that scripture.

If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.
 
cobalt1959

cobalt1959

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Ahwatukee said:
When we read:

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." - Matt.24:29-30

"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. " - Rev.1:7

There is no figurative meaning regarding the scriptures above. When He returns to the earth to end the age, every eye will see Him and will mourn because of Him, just as the scripture states in both Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.1:7.

In further support of this, Jesus warns the inhabitants of the earth about false Messiah's and how to tell the difference between the false one's and the real one arrives. He does this by saying:

"So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out to look; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

The above demonstrates a literal, visual, appearing of Christ arriving on the clouds of the sky and His angels with Him, as a means to identifying the true Messiah. You can't do that if Jesus' appearing is interpreted to be figurative of Titus and his Roman legions destroying Jerusalem and the temple.

The prophesies stating that a there will be a great earthquake, the sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light, is exactly what is going to take place. There is no figurative speech in that scripture.

If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense.
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And yet another verse that demands a literal, visible return:

Acts 1:7-11 7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

All past fulfilled prophecy was fulfilled in testable, visible, literal ways. For a Christian, there is no doubt that they were fulfilled because there is tangible physical proof. Prophecy is the very core of Christian faith because it is the one definable and unquestionable bedrock no other religion has. God does not lie and God keeps His word. So when he says that this particular thing will happen this way, we know, from how God has fulfilled these prophecies in the past, how He will fulfill them in the future. So when He says "When Jesus returns, everyone will see Him," we know, as biblical fact, that is exactly what will happen. So any claim that He has already come back, but the world didn't witness it is automatically false. It fails a basic scriptural test and it fails when measured against how past prophecy was fulfilled, which is literally, in the way God said it would be fulfilled.

P.S., do you live in Ahwatukee, AZ.?
 
delirious

delirious

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cobalt1959 said:
Preterist may as well toss their Bible in the trash and just go off of what their particular sect teaches because they certainly don't need it.
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tanakh said:
I agree with much of what you say but Christ did not come in 70AD in the way most Christians believe.
Click to expand...
Ahwatukee said:
The above demonstrates a literal, visual, appearing of Christ arriving on the clouds of the sky and His angels with Him, as a means to identifying the true Messiah
Click to expand...
Do we believe Scripture or do we believe what we have been taught by men? Granted, many of these men that have gone before us love the Lord with all their hearts but the doctrines they have come up with are simply wrong.

Rev 1: 1,3...Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 allow for only one interpretation. God warned us 7 times at the very beginning and very end of the book to pay attention. Not just once. So when you ignore it you come up with a false interpretation. It isn't just those verses either. The entire NT says the same thing. Jesus was coming back at the end of His generation. The Bible does not allow for any other time frame.

Those verses say that the things written in Revelation would be fulfilled shortly. We don't get to pick and choose because it doesn't fit our current understanding. We either believe the word of God or we don't.

You guys are all making the same mistake that 99% of Christians for 2,000 years have made.

The same mistake Nicodemus made in John 3 when he said, "Can I enter my mother's womb a second time?"

The same mistake the woman at the well made in John 4 when she said, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."

The same mistake the disciples (not the 12) made in John 6 when Jesus said, "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood" and they said "This is a hard saying who can understand it."

The same mistake that is all over the NT. When Jesus talks about things that are spiritual, humans convert those things into physical things. It is an easy mistake to make and is very natural for humans. It is our natural way of thinking. It is also completely wrong.

You are looking for a physical kingdom that is not coming. The kingdom is spiritual and He lives within you. That kingdom came in 70 A.D....a long time ago. Just like Revelation plainly declares.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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delirious said:
Rev 1: 1,3...Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 allow for only one interpretation. God warned us 7 times at […]

Those verses say that the things written in Revelation would be fulfilled shortly. We don't get to pick and choose because it doesn't fit our current understanding. We either believe the word of God or we don't.
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"Shortly [adverb]" is not the word used in 1:1 and 22:6, but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," and correlates with what is being said in 4:1 [also in 1:19c] "things which must come to pass [the future aspects of the Book, which will take place] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "shortly [adverb]," as in immediately/soon... and not over the course of some 2000 yrs as the Historicist view has it, either).

The words used in 1:1,3; 22:6,7,10,12,20 are not all identical. The nouns are not adverbs.

1:1 and 22:6 are "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and pertain solely to the "future" aspects ["hereafter" / "after these [things]"] of the Book (in the three aspects: "the things which YOU SAW"... "the things which ARE"... "the things which must take place AFTER THESE"). That is what "prophecy" is and does. What was spelled out in Isaiah 61:1-2 [and context] was not ALL [completely] fulfilled the very day that Jesus spoke the words He did in Luke 4:16-21, for example.
 
delirious

delirious

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TheDivineWatermark said:
"Shortly [adverb]" is not the word used in 1:1 and 22:6, but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," and correlates with what is being said in 4:1 [also in 1:19c] "things which must come to pass [the future aspects of the Book, which will take place] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "shortly [adverb]," as in immediately/soon... and not over the course of some 2000 yrs as the Historicist view has it, either).

The words used in 1:1,3; 22:6,7,10,12,20 are not all identical. The nouns are not adverbs.

1:1 and 22:6 are "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and pertain solely to the "future" aspects ["hereafter" / "after these [things]"] of the Book (in the three aspects: "the things which YOU SAW"... "the things which ARE"... "the things which must take place AFTER THESE"). That is what "prophecy" is and does. What was spelled out in Isaiah 61:1-2 [and context] was not ALL [completely] fulfilled the very day that Jesus spoke the words He did in Luke 4:16-21, for example.
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We have already had this discussion before. I know that you don't want to accept what those verses say. I will let others read those verses and decide for themselves. I think it is clear what they really say.

You are clinging to your dispensationalism and your physical fulfillment that you want very badly. That is up to you. I wish you well.
 
tanakh

tanakh

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delirious said:
Do we believe Scripture or do we believe what we have been taught by men? Granted, many of these men that have gone before us love the Lord with all their hearts but the doctrines they have come up with are simply wrong.

Rev 1: 1,3...Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 allow for only one interpretation. God warned us 7 times at the very beginning and very end of the book to pay attention. Not just once. So when you ignore it you come up with a false interpretation. It isn't just those verses either. The entire NT says the same thing. Jesus was coming back at the end of His generation. The Bible does not allow for any other time frame.

Those verses say that the things written in Revelation would be fulfilled shortly. We don't get to pick and choose because it doesn't fit our current understanding. We either believe the word of God or we don't.

You guys are all making the same mistake that 99% of Christians for 2,000 years have made.

The same mistake Nicodemus made in John 3 when he said, "Can I enter my mother's womb a second time?"

The same mistake the woman at the well made in John 4 when she said, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."

The same mistake the disciples (not the 12) made in John 6 when Jesus said, "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood" and they said "This is a hard saying who can understand it."

The same mistake that is all over the NT. When Jesus talks about things that are spiritual, humans convert those things into physical things. It is an easy mistake to make and is very natural for humans. It is our natural way of thinking. It is also completely wrong.

You are looking for a physical kingdom that is not coming. The kingdom is spiritual and He lives within you. That kingdom came in 70 A.D....a long time ago. Just like Revelation plainly declares.
Click to expand...
So when Paul told the Thessalonians that Christ would bring with him all those that fell asleep,(died), they all arrived in AD70 together with the Angelic Host. When should we expect the rest of the saints who have died since to turn up?
 
preston39

preston39

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delirious said:
Yes, maybe even more. I don't know the exact percentage but there is between 250 and 400 references to the Old Testament. I have never tried to count it but those are the numbers I have heard. You have to understand the OT to understand Revelation.

For example, the new heavens and earth. It is not a physical place. It's Christ's kingdom and the church.

The new heavens and earth is mentioned in Isaiah 65 & 66 and Rev 21 & 22. We need to look at all four chapters to get a complete picture of what the new heavens and earth really is. What do we find described there?

In Isaiah 65: 1-16 we see rebellious old covenant Israel described and God saying He will call His people by a new name (Gentiles) and destroy the rebellious Jews/Israelites which He did in 70 A.D.

In verse 17 he introduces the new heavens and earth and in verse 18 he explains what it is. A Jerusalem whose is a rejoicing and her people a joy. In Galatians 4: 22-31 Paul touches on this beautifully. The Jerusalem above is us. The Jerusalem below is rebellious Israel.

What do we see in Revelation 21? We don't see a remade physical universe. Almost the whole chapter is dedicated to describing the church/the Lamb's bride/New Jerusalem.

The old heavens and earth passed away in 70 A.D. That was when rebellious old covenant Israel and the fallen principalities and powers (fallen angels that rebelled with Satan) were destroyed by Christ's second coming. A spiritual coming.

The new heavens and earth has been in existence since then. That is Christ and the departed saints ruling with Him forever in heaven (new heavens) and the church on earth (new earth/new Jerusalem). It is spiritual.

My fellow Christians for 2,000 years have been looking for a future second coming that is physical. A remade universe turned into a utopia/garden of Eden. Christ said His kingdom was within us and did not come with observation (Luke 17: 20-21). It is spiritual.

One day I hope my fellow Christians will understand this. Christ already came back in 70 A.D. The second coming. Jesus said it 7 times Himself (Matt 16: 27-28, Mark 8: 38-9: 1, Luke 9: 26-27, Matt 24: 34, Mark 13: 30, Luke 21: 31-32, Matt 10: 23). It is all over the NT.
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You are so very wrong in your review of scripture. So far wrong that is incumbent upon you to give scripture another chance with study. Hopefully you will see the need and benefit of that effort.
 
delirious

delirious

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tanakh said:
So when Paul told the Thessalonians that Christ would bring with him all those that fell asleep,(died), they all arrived in AD70 together with the Angelic Host. When should we expect the rest of the saints who have died since to turn up?
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I think you would agree with me that 1 Cor 15: 50-58 is the same resurrection as 1 Thess 4: 13-18.

It is also the same resurrection of Matt 24: 30-31. The same resurrection that 3 verses later, in verse 34, Jesus says will happen in His generation. This is also the resurrection of Daniel 12 and John 5: 28-29 and the one of Acts 24: 15 that Paul said was about to happen imminently. The Greek word is “mello” and is in the present infinitive. It means imminent and don’t let people tell you different.

In Daniel 12: 1 we see the great tribulation. The same one Jesus talks about in Matt 24: 21. In Daniel 12: 2 we see the resurrection and judgment. The same one Jesus talks about 9 verses later in Matt 24: 30-31 and also in the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25: 31-46. All those things He said would happen in His generation (Matt 24: 34).

Daniel 12: 7 says all these things will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is completely shattered. The end of the 70 weeks prophecy which Gabriel told him was for his people, the Jews, and their holy city. This happened in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple torn down. God sent a very loud spiritual message to the world if a person has eyes to see it.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is the transition from the old heavens and earth to the new heavens and earth. From the fallen angels, principalities and powers and rebellious old covenant Israel into Christ’s kingdom and the church (Luke 21: 31-32).

Why were the OT saints, as well as first century Christians, sleeping when they died? Because, although they were saved, they could not enter heaven. Jesus says in John 3: 13 no one had entered heaven yet. They were separated from God. A type of sorrow, pain and spiritual death yet they were still saved because they were awaiting the promise of the resurrection.

Christ said “I am the resurrection and the life”. When Christ came with His kingdom in 70 A.D. that spiritual death was swallowed up by life. By the appearing of Him and His kingdom. The saints arose and entered heaven. No more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21: 4).

Rev 14: 13 says “blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on”. Why does it say that? The very next verses tell you why in Rev 14: 14-16. “One like a Son of Man thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped”. The resurrection. No more separation from God.

That’s why Paul says in 1 Cor 15: 51 we shall not all sleep. All Christians who have died since 70 A.D. enter heaven immediately.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is referring to that moment when we “meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. It is not a physical rapture. It is a crossing over spiritually.

Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are the same event? They are. What happens in the seventh trumpet? The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God. The resurrection happens.

The seven bowls are all poured out on things. The earth, the water, the sun etc… What is the seventh one poured out on? The air. The same air that Paul says is ruled by evil demons in Eph 2: 2. The same air of 1 Thess 4: 17. They have become God’s now. We meet him there. Not physically. Spiritually.

Sorry for the long post but it is hard to explain succinctly.
 
S

Sipsey

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One must “spiritualize” a great deal of Scripture in order to see Revelation as “fulfilled.” I have debated some in the past with this view and they have all come from a particular clic. I have seen their reasoning and my brow furrows and I squint somewhat in puzzlement as to how in the world they could believe such a conclusion.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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tanakh said:
When should we expect the rest of the saints who have died since to turn up
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The y won't be "turning up".

See the sequence of events:

(Rev 14:8 A second angel followed the first, declaring: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great city! She made all the nations drink of the wine of her immoral passion."

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: 'Blessed are the dead, those who die in the Lord from this moment on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so they can rest from their hard work, because their deeds will follow them.)

The great city Babylon (Jerusalem of the 1st century) falls, the old covenant is wrapped as scroll (Rev 6), from that time on the dead those "who die in the Lord" go straight to their heavenly reward, no waiting in Hades.
 
tanakh

tanakh

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#137
delirious said:
I think you would agree with me that 1 Cor 15: 50-58 is the same resurrection as 1 Thess 4: 13-18.

It is also the same resurrection of Matt 24: 30-31. The same resurrection that 3 verses later, in verse 34, Jesus says will happen in His generation. This is also the resurrection of Daniel 12 and John 5: 28-29 and the one of Acts 24: 15 that Paul said was about to happen imminently. The Greek word is “mello” and is in the present infinitive. It means imminent and don’t let people tell you different.

In Daniel 12: 1 we see the great tribulation. The same one Jesus talks about in Matt 24: 21. In Daniel 12: 2 we see the resurrection and judgment. The same one Jesus talks about 9 verses later in Matt 24: 30-31 and also in the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25: 31-46. All those things He said would happen in His generation (Matt 24: 34).

Daniel 12: 7 says all these things will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is completely shattered. The end of the 70 weeks prophecy which Gabriel told him was for his people, the Jews, and their holy city. This happened in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple torn down. God sent a very loud spiritual message to the world if a person has eyes to see it.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is the transition from the old heavens and earth to the new heavens and earth. From the fallen angels, principalities and powers and rebellious old covenant Israel into Christ’s kingdom and the church (Luke 21: 31-32).

Why were the OT saints, as well as first century Christians, sleeping when they died? Because, although they were saved, they could not enter heaven. Jesus says in John 3: 13 no one had entered heaven yet. They were separated from God. A type of sorrow, pain and spiritual death yet they were still saved because they were awaiting the promise of the resurrection.

Christ said “I am the resurrection and the life”. When Christ came with His kingdom in 70 A.D. that spiritual death was swallowed up by life. By the appearing of Him and His kingdom. The saints arose and entered heaven. No more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21: 4).

Rev 14: 13 says “blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on”. Why does it say that? The very next verses tell you why in Rev 14: 14-16. “One like a Son of Man thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped”. The resurrection. No more separation from God.

That’s why Paul says in 1 Cor 15: 51 we shall not all sleep. All Christians who have died since 70 A.D. enter heaven immediately.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is referring to that moment when we “meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. It is not a physical rapture. It is a crossing over spiritually.

Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are the same event? They are. What happens in the seventh trumpet? The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God. The resurrection happens.

The seven bowls are all poured out on things. The earth, the water, the sun etc… What is the seventh one poured out on? The air. The same air that Paul says is ruled by evil demons in Eph 2: 2. The same air of 1 Thess 4: 17. They have become God’s now. We meet him there. Not physically. Spiritually.

Sorry for the long post but it is hard to explain succinctly.
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I am not convinced. I still believe in a second coming although I do agree that AD70 was an important event as far as the OT age
is concerned. I believe the rapture and resurrection happens at or shortly after the seventh trumpet. I believe that the last judgement happens when Christ returns. I don't believe in a literal Millennium but that the new heaven and earth comes into being
after that. I also find it difficult to believe that the church with its many famous and devout members have all have been mistaken
over this vital doctrine for 2000 years. To me its just as unbelievable as the Pre Trib futurist claim that runs on the same lines but with different conclusions
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#138
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#138
delirious said:
Do we believe Scripture or do we believe what we have been taught by men? Granted, many of these men that have gone before us love the Lord with all their hearts but the doctrines they have come up with are simply wrong.

Rev 1: 1,3...Rev 22: 6,7,10,12,20 allow for only one interpretation. God warned us 7 times at the very beginning and very end of the book to pay attention. Not just once. So when you ignore it you come up with a false interpretation. It isn't just those verses either. The entire NT says the same thing. Jesus was coming back at the end of His generation. The Bible does not allow for any other time frame.

Those verses say that the things written in Revelation would be fulfilled shortly. We don't get to pick and choose because it doesn't fit our current understanding. We either believe the word of God or we don't.

You guys are all making the same mistake that 99% of Christians for 2,000 years have made.

The same mistake Nicodemus made in John 3 when he said, "Can I enter my mother's womb a second time?"

The same mistake the woman at the well made in John 4 when she said, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."

The same mistake the disciples (not the 12) made in John 6 when Jesus said, "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood" and they said "This is a hard saying who can understand it."

The same mistake that is all over the NT. When Jesus talks about things that are spiritual, humans convert those things into physical things. It is an easy mistake to make and is very natural for humans. It is our natural way of thinking. It is also completely wrong.

You are looking for a physical kingdom that is not coming. The kingdom is spiritual and He lives within you. That kingdom came in 70 A.D....a long time ago. Just like Revelation plainly declares.
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No,we can all see the rapture,the ac,the mark and the gt have not yet happened.
No brainer.
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

Banned
#139
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
#139
delirious said:
I think you would agree with me that 1 Cor 15: 50-58 is the same resurrection as 1 Thess 4: 13-18.

It is also the same resurrection of Matt 24: 30-31. The same resurrection that 3 verses later, in verse 34, Jesus says will happen in His generation. This is also the resurrection of Daniel 12 and John 5: 28-29 and the one of Acts 24: 15 that Paul said was about to happen imminently. The Greek word is “mello” and is in the present infinitive. It means imminent and don’t let people tell you different.

In Daniel 12: 1 we see the great tribulation. The same one Jesus talks about in Matt 24: 21. In Daniel 12: 2 we see the resurrection and judgment. The same one Jesus talks about 9 verses later in Matt 24: 30-31 and also in the sheep and goats judgment of Matt 25: 31-46. All those things He said would happen in His generation (Matt 24: 34).

Daniel 12: 7 says all these things will be accomplished when the power of the holy people is completely shattered. The end of the 70 weeks prophecy which Gabriel told him was for his people, the Jews, and their holy city. This happened in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the temple torn down. God sent a very loud spiritual message to the world if a person has eyes to see it.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is the transition from the old heavens and earth to the new heavens and earth. From the fallen angels, principalities and powers and rebellious old covenant Israel into Christ’s kingdom and the church (Luke 21: 31-32).

Why were the OT saints, as well as first century Christians, sleeping when they died? Because, although they were saved, they could not enter heaven. Jesus says in John 3: 13 no one had entered heaven yet. They were separated from God. A type of sorrow, pain and spiritual death yet they were still saved because they were awaiting the promise of the resurrection.

Christ said “I am the resurrection and the life”. When Christ came with His kingdom in 70 A.D. that spiritual death was swallowed up by life. By the appearing of Him and His kingdom. The saints arose and entered heaven. No more death, crying, sorrow or pain (Rev 21: 4).

Rev 14: 13 says “blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on”. Why does it say that? The very next verses tell you why in Rev 14: 14-16. “One like a Son of Man thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped”. The resurrection. No more separation from God.

That’s why Paul says in 1 Cor 15: 51 we shall not all sleep. All Christians who have died since 70 A.D. enter heaven immediately.

1 Thess 4: 13-18 is referring to that moment when we “meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. It is not a physical rapture. It is a crossing over spiritually.

Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are the same event? They are. What happens in the seventh trumpet? The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God. The resurrection happens.

The seven bowls are all poured out on things. The earth, the water, the sun etc… What is the seventh one poured out on? The air. The same air that Paul says is ruled by evil demons in Eph 2: 2. The same air of 1 Thess 4: 17. They have become God’s now. We meet him there. Not physically. Spiritually.

Sorry for the long post but it is hard to explain succinctly.
Click to expand...
"1 Thess 4: 13-18 is referring to that moment when we “meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. It is not a physical rapture. It is a crossing over spiritually. "

Not hardly.
You literally made that up.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#140
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
113
#140
delirious said:
Rev 14: 13 says “blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on”. Why does it say that? The very next verses tell you why in Rev 14: 14-16. “One like a Son of Man thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped”. The resurrection. No more separation from God.
Click to expand...
How are you suggesting the living/remaining [unto the coming of the Lord] are "caught up [G726 - harpagēsometha ] together [G260 - hama - "at once"] WITH [G4862 - syn - (denoting "UNION"/"IDENTIFICATION" with)] them" [that is, the living/remaining caught up at once WITH the dead in Christ" (who shall "rise first")], and why do you think they had to wait clear till 70ad (for that, spiritually) when the Spirit through Paul's pen says in Ephesians (and Colossians) that the "spiritual" aspects (if you want to label it that) occurred when Jesus Himself ascended, well-before 70ad (and I believe well before the "40 days later" visible ascension in Acts 1, even).



delirious said:
That’s why Paul says in 1 Cor 15: 51 we shall not all sleep. All Christians who have died since 70 A.D. enter heaven immediately.
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Again, it seems to me that this occurred, like above, well before 70ad (as it pertains to their "spirits," not physical bodies ["changed"]; Stephen, for example).

delirious said:
1 Thess 4: 13-18 is referring to that moment when we “meet Christ in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. It is not a physical rapture. It is a crossing over spiritually.
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Do you believe the "G3857 - paradeisos - Paradise" word in 2Cor12:4 refers to the same one that Lk23:43 does? [where Jesus had said "today"]
 
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