^ EDIT to add to my point re: Phil3:20-21 - V.21 "change" = "G3345 - metaschématizó / metaschēmatisei" - "3345 metasxēmatízō (from 3326 /metá, "with, bringing about change, after-effect" and 4976 /sxḗma, "outward shape") – properly, to change outward appearance after a change."
Why is the end times so important?
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So, I don't believe I've asked you this before 
, but what is your take on what Jesus had said in
Luke 22:30,16,18 -
14 And when the hour was come, He reclined, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with [G3326 - meta] you before I suffer. 16 For I say to you that never again will I eat thereof, until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 And having received the cup, having given thanks, He said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I say to you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now until the kingdom of God shall come.” [see also Matthew 26:29 "...until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] you..."] in My Father's kingdom"]
[…] But I am in your midst as the One serving.
28 Now you are those having remained with Me in My trials. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as My Father appointed to Me, 30 so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel. [see also Matthew 19:28 (and its parallel-time-wise, Matthew 25:31-34 and context)]
Do you believe all of the above contexts (the 4 separate contexts I provided ^ ) took place (were "fulfilled") in 70ad??
, but what is your take on what Jesus had said inLuke 22:30,16,18 -
14 And when the hour was come, He reclined, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with [G3326 - meta] you before I suffer. 16 For I say to you that never again will I eat thereof, until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 And having received the cup, having given thanks, He said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I say to you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now until the kingdom of God shall come.” [see also Matthew 26:29 "...until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] you..."] in My Father's kingdom"]
[…] But I am in your midst as the One serving.
28 Now you are those having remained with Me in My trials. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as My Father appointed to Me, 30 so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel. [see also Matthew 19:28 (and its parallel-time-wise, Matthew 25:31-34 and context)]
Do you believe all of the above contexts (the 4 separate contexts I provided ^ ) took place (were "fulfilled") in 70ad??
So, I don't believe I've asked you this before , but what is your take on what Jesus had said in
Luke 22:30,16,18 -
14 And when the hour was come, He reclined, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I say to you that never again will I eat thereof, until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 And having received the cup, having given thanks, He said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I say to you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now until the kingdom of God shall come.” [see also Matthew 26:29 "...until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] you..."] in My Father's kingdom"]
[…] But I am in your midst as the One serving.
28 Now you are those having remained with Me in My trials. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as My Father appointed to Me, 30 so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [see also Matthew 19:28 (and its parallel-time-wise, Matthew 25:31-34 and context)]
Do you believe all of the above contexts (the 4 separate contexts I provided ^ ) took place (were "fulfilled") in 70ad??
, but what is your take on what Jesus had said inLuke 22:30,16,18 -
14 And when the hour was come, He reclined, and the apostles with Him. 15 And He said to them, “With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I say to you that never again will I eat thereof, until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 And having received the cup, having given thanks, He said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves. 18 For I say to you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now until the kingdom of God shall come.” [see also Matthew 26:29 "...until THAT DAY when I drink it NEW with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] you..."] in My Father's kingdom"]
[…] But I am in your midst as the One serving.
28 Now you are those having remained with Me in My trials. 29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as My Father appointed to Me, 30 so that you may eat and may drink at My table in My kingdom, and may sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [see also Matthew 19:28 (and its parallel-time-wise, Matthew 25:31-34 and context)]
Do you believe all of the above contexts (the 4 separate contexts I provided ^ ) took place (were "fulfilled") in 70ad??
When he was nailed on the Cross. When did he drink of the Vine again? With his disciples at every "Lord's supper" since his resurrection.
"May sit on thrones", Christ was seated on his throne:
(Heb 8:1 . . . . We have such a high priest, one who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,)
(Eph 2:6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus)
(Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.)
In the days of the early church the apostles were judging the tribes, Paul had preached and rebuked them. James and Peter both writes to them.
James even heads up a council in the book of Acts:
(Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles)
E
The harlot is not the city, Look at the characteristics of the harlot. Jerusalem has none of those characteristics, but the system does.
The harlot is the system of religion which tries to take the place of god, She is also so strong, the antichrist is worried about her power. Thats why he destroys her BEFORE he takes power
The harlot is the system of religion which tries to take the place of god, She is also so strong, the antichrist is worried about her power. Thats why he destroys her BEFORE he takes power
We just don't agree here EG. John uses the term whore/harlot and both are describing Jerusalem "where our lord was crucified" - Rev 11:8) He used the terms Sodom and Egypt and later identifies Jerusalem as "mystery Babylon".
(Rev 17:18 As for the woman you saw, she is the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.")
So it is a city. The old protestants all concluded it was Rome, the seat of the Vatican.
(Rev 17:18 As for the woman you saw, she is the great city that has sovereignty over the kings of the earth.")
So it is a city. The old protestants all concluded it was Rome, the seat of the Vatican.
E
Yes she is the great city
again, Jerusalem does NOT fit the characteristics of the harlot. Look up what it says about the harlot. Then look at jerusalem. She fits ZERO of the characteristics.
But there is a great city that has RULE of the HARLOT SYSTEM, from which fits every one of the characterisitcs of the harlot given in the passage. And is WHY when she is destroyed the system which she leads will be destroyed with it, and the world will MOURN
And when that city is destroyed, THE WORLD WILL MORN..
think about it, The world will REJOICE when jerusalem is destroyed. Not mourn.
I do not have time right now. But I can show you the characteristics one by one (I already gave you one) and you will hopefully see, Jerusalem fits non of them.
again, Jerusalem does NOT fit the characteristics of the harlot. Look up what it says about the harlot. Then look at jerusalem. She fits ZERO of the characteristics.
But there is a great city that has RULE of the HARLOT SYSTEM, from which fits every one of the characterisitcs of the harlot given in the passage. And is WHY when she is destroyed the system which she leads will be destroyed with it, and the world will MOURN
And when that city is destroyed, THE WORLD WILL MORN..
think about it, The world will REJOICE when jerusalem is destroyed. Not mourn.
I do not have time right now. But I can show you the characteristics one by one (I already gave you one) and you will hopefully see, Jerusalem fits non of them.
The protestants of old got it wrong, Rome of today was not guilty of killing the prophets and the the apostles.
We know who was, Jerusalem.
(Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it!)
(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf!)
(Rev 18:24 The blood of the saints and prophets was found in her, along with the blood of all those who had been killed on the earth.)
We see in the revelation that the prophets are told to rejoice at the judgment of the whore and her city, nothing to do with the Vatican.
(1 Th 2:15 -16 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us severely. They are displeasing to God and are opposed to all people, because they hinder us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they constantly fill up their measure of sins, but wrath has come upon them completely.)
Paul is speaking about the Jews and Jerusalem, the wrath was soon to fall on the whore after he wrote.
We know who was, Jerusalem.
(Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you would have none of it!)
(Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has pronounced judgment against her on your behalf!)
(Rev 18:24 The blood of the saints and prophets was found in her, along with the blood of all those who had been killed on the earth.)
We see in the revelation that the prophets are told to rejoice at the judgment of the whore and her city, nothing to do with the Vatican.
(1 Th 2:15 -16 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us severely. They are displeasing to God and are opposed to all people, because they hinder us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they constantly fill up their measure of sins, but wrath has come upon them completely.)
Paul is speaking about the Jews and Jerusalem, the wrath was soon to fall on the whore after he wrote.
So... by the following passage, in 1Cor11:23-26, where it says, "[as often as ye...]... ye do proclaim the Lord's DEATH TILL He come," you are saying this (in THIS passage) meant "until [the events of] 70ad" ? so that this is now no longer a thing [to do / 'to proclaim,' in this fashion], since that time [70ad]?? Is that what you see this 1Cor11 context to be saying?
[1Cor11:23-26 "ye do proclaim"... in cobtrast to what Israel was "to proclaim" in Lev23:2 and context]
[1Cor11:23-26 "ye do proclaim"... in cobtrast to what Israel was "to proclaim" in Lev23:2 and context]
I'm not picking and choosing, you are. You confine the word "shortly" to one single meaning, i.e. yours and then try and make your eschatology fit what meaning you give to the word. God does not view time in the same way as we do because He is outside of it, and He does not progress His plan according to our time table, or our understanding. You are attempting to force Him to do so, all based on the flawed understanding of the word "shortly."
The concept of Preterism is so badly flawed it is difficult to fully explain it's flaws. The biggest mistake it makes, at your peril, is to deny Jesus the glory He deserves by taking away a visible and provable return to both claim and establish His kingdom. Jesus' return has to be both visible, and provable, according to scripture, to fulfill the prophecies. You just toss those requirements out the window as if they do not exist, and yet, you are continually telling people they don't take the Bible seriously. That's pretty ironic. There is no proof you can offer that Jesus returned in 70 AD. it was not visible and it was not witnessed by the world. No saints returned with Him. You spiritualize all those requirements. Big mistake. It is blatantly obvious that Satan and his angels are not chained.
The concept of Preterism is so badly flawed it is difficult to fully explain it's flaws. The biggest mistake it makes, at your peril, is to deny Jesus the glory He deserves by taking away a visible and provable return to both claim and establish His kingdom. Jesus' return has to be both visible, and provable, according to scripture, to fulfill the prophecies. You just toss those requirements out the window as if they do not exist, and yet, you are continually telling people they don't take the Bible seriously. That's pretty ironic. There is no proof you can offer that Jesus returned in 70 AD. it was not visible and it was not witnessed by the world. No saints returned with Him. You spiritualize all those requirements. Big mistake. It is blatantly obvious that Satan and his angels are not chained.
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Okay, so do you not agree with the following (from Bible Hub):
[quoting]
4976 sxma – properly, exterior shape (form); (figuratively) the outer "shape" (manner, appearance).
4976/sxēma ("outward, visible form") is used of Jesus' earthly body (Phil 2:7,8). Christ incarnated into a genuine physical body, which was not an "exact match with typical humanity" because His body was never touched or tainted by sin (even original sin).
[end quoting]
Do you believe Jesus did not have a literal, tangible, physical body?
[from Phil3:21 - "3345 metasxēmatízō (from 3326 /metá, "with, bringing about change, after-effect" and 4976 /sxḗma, "outward shape") – properly, to change outward appearance after a change." ]
[quoting]
4976 sxma – properly, exterior shape (form); (figuratively) the outer "shape" (manner, appearance).
4976/sxēma ("outward, visible form") is used of Jesus' earthly body (Phil 2:7,8). Christ incarnated into a genuine physical body, which was not an "exact match with typical humanity" because His body was never touched or tainted by sin (even original sin).
[end quoting]
Do you believe Jesus did not have a literal, tangible, physical body?
[from Phil3:21 - "3345 metasxēmatízō (from 3326 /metá, "with, bringing about change, after-effect" and 4976 /sxḗma, "outward shape") – properly, to change outward appearance after a change." ]
Okay, so you are saying that this passages is suggesting that THEY (back then) did this (as often as they did it) "in remembrance of Him" AND to "ye do proclaim the Lord's DEATH TILL He come [in 70ad]" and then AFTER that, all the rest of us just "do this in remembrance" even though this text says "as often as ye do"... "ye do proclaim the Lord's DEATH TILL He come" (and nothing about what they were to do with this AFTER 70ad, apparently, when it was supposedly "fulfilled").
My view is somewhat different, in that, I believe this is saying (to "the Church which is His body") "ye do proclaim the Lord's DEATH TILL He come" (that is, for us in the Rapture, at which time WE will CORPORATELY be [in effect] PROCLAIMING something ELSE!! [not His "DEATH" but...]; and yes, I believe that we must believe: His death, burial, AND RESURRECTION as ALL vital Truths, for salvation, per 1Cor15:1-4; but this 1Cor11:23-26 passage has to do with what we are corporately "proclaiming" in the "as often as ye do" particular thing [the Lord's Supper] )
My view is somewhat different, in that, I believe this is saying (to "the Church which is His body") "ye do proclaim the Lord's DEATH TILL He come" (that is, for us in the Rapture, at which time WE will CORPORATELY be [in effect] PROCLAIMING something ELSE!!
[not His "DEATH" but...]; and yes, I believe that we must believe: His death, burial, AND RESURRECTION as ALL vital Truths, for salvation, per 1Cor15:1-4; but this 1Cor11:23-26 passage has to do with what we are corporately "proclaiming" in the "as often as ye do" particular thing [the Lord's Supper] )-
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Hello cobalt1959,
I did live in Ahwatukee up until last year. I resigned from my job, sold my house and moved out to Lake Havasu City, Az. and transitioned from computer operations to my own photography business.
Regarding the plain, literal proof of scripture, Satan has certainly fabricated many lies, as well as finding people to spread them. It just amazes me how people are so ready to apply symbolic/allegorical meanings to what is meant to be interpreted literally. While it is true that God uses symbolism, especially in Revelation, they are in error to apply a symbolic meaning to everything. The context always determines whether something should be interpreted as literal or symbolic. Regarding the Lord's appearing, I also like the following:
"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
I did live in Ahwatukee up until last year. I resigned from my job, sold my house and moved out to Lake Havasu City, Az. and transitioned from computer operations to my own photography business.
Regarding the plain, literal proof of scripture, Satan has certainly fabricated many lies, as well as finding people to spread them. It just amazes me how people are so ready to apply symbolic/allegorical meanings to what is meant to be interpreted literally. While it is true that God uses symbolism, especially in Revelation, they are in error to apply a symbolic meaning to everything. The context always determines whether something should be interpreted as literal or symbolic. Regarding the Lord's appearing, I also like the following:
"Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?" Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."
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