Not By Works

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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,101
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#86,101
GodsGrace101 said:
Did you know there are 40,000 different Protestant denominations, incl independent churches.
This is because people think they could read the bible and come up with their own theories.
Something so simple to understand as The Parable of the Sower is changed to mean what YOU want it to mean...

But any intelligent person could read it for themselves and not depend on others and they will understand it if they go to it with a clear mind.

What is sad D, is that we can't agree on a VERY IMPORTANT theory, such as eternal security.
I do believe in eternal security BTW,,,but there ARE conditions.

OSAS is NOT biblical and no amount of twisting words will make it so.
Revelation 21:27
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Wrong again....you do not believe in eternal security....you believe in a self maintained salvation that is dependent upon what YOU do and not what Christ does.......and that is the difference between you and I.....

I boast in JESUS

You boast in yourself and what YOU DO to maintain it....<----that is NOT the faith and hope the bible lays bare.....

And who cares about all of the Baskin Robbins 57 flavors of Christianity.......woven throughout that whole mess is a linage of truthful churches and believers........

And as far as the (sad statement) WHY would I agree with someone that ignores context, Greek verb tense, hundreds of scriptures and the simple truth that the irrevocable gift of faith is what saves a man eternally...the same FAITH JESUS begins, finishes and COMPLETES

You do understand the words FINISHES and COMPLETES right
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#86,102
Jan 18, 2011
12,294
6,667
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#86,102
Macabeus said:
NO, changing the original argument from "it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear fruit" to "it MAY take a period..." is goalpost shifting. But I shouldn't expect you to know the difference between the two statements, I guess

And also, what you are doing with the grapes is making an analogy walk on all fours. Google it.
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I have said since day 1 of our back and fourth that it does not matter how long it takes to bear fruit, as long as it comes. you keep obsessing over how long.

only judgemnetal people like you care about things like that,
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,103
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,103
gb9 said:
I have said since day 1 of our back and fourth that it does not matter how long it takes to bear fruit, as long as it comes. you keep obsessing over how long.

only judgemnetal people like you care about things like that,
Click to expand...
Do not make a parable walk on all fours “In every parable, many circumstances and details are introduced which are intended merely to complete the similitudes in the parable. The interpreter should not attempt to interpret all such details. A parable. . . has but one central truth. Therefore, discover the central truth or theme which the parable is setting forth, and then explain the main circumstances of the parable in light of this truth, leaving out details incidental to its central idea” (Tan, p. 148). “To hunt for meanings in every detail in the parables is to turn them into allegories” (Zuck, p. 216).

https://plantedinchrist.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/hermeneutics-101-interpreting-parables-part-2/

WHat is the one central truth in the parables about trees and bearing fruit? How long it takes? UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM>………….NO!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,104
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#86,104
GodsGrace101 said:
You think this is a catholic thing?

Here are some churches that believe in loss of salvation:

Assembly of God
Nazarene
Catholic
Lutheran
Methodist



And others. I believe the above should be enough to make you stop bringing up catholicism.

And you didn't answer.
As usual....no problem.
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AND her daughters LIKE I have said.........did you miss the post about my Grandfather that was a die hard AOG believer and member....

He went to his death from cancer whipping around, screaming that he was catching fire and begging for help and to be saved...

He peddled a works based and kept salvation....

My other grandpa was a die hard drunk, he loved his Olympia BEER.....he also died of cancer with a smile and as peaceful as one can be...he trusted JESUS by faith the last week of his life and was not immersed and or did ONE good work in the name of JESUS

I will stick with JESUS and FAITH and HOPE....he will see me through to the end......you can have a ball with your works based I keep myself saved belief...
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,105
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
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#86,105
gb9 said:
so, explaining how grapes. which were a staple of that area, grow, is " moving the goal post".

o.k.

this whole back and fourth is about how long ( not that it matters, it only matters to judgers like you), It takes to produce fruit. and actually explaining how fruit grows is bad,

amazing.
Click to expand...
He cannot accept the truth......exactly why I quit engaging the ignorance.................
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,106
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
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#86,106
dcontroversal said:
He cannot accept the truth......exactly why I quit engaging the ignorance.................
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The truth is that Jesus' use of tree and fruit bearing language was not to convey that it takes years for a believer to bear fruit. Any exegete worth his weight in dross knows that.

To say that was His intent is to BADLY MISHANDLE SCRIPTURE

The scriptures about trees bearing fruit and their intent HAS NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes believers to start bearing fruit. TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, WRETCHED, ABOMINABLE EISEGESIS you both are guilty of.

Plus, Eternally Gratefull and GB9 have both given examples where it does not take a period of growth to maturity to bear fruit, which contradicts your ALL INCLUSIVE statement that "it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear fruit."

God can use any believer to draw people to Himself. Which is bearing fruit.
 
Last edited:
G

gb9

Senior Member
#86,107
Jan 18, 2011
12,294
6,667
113
#86,107
Macabeus said:
Do not make a parable walk on all fours “In every parable, many circumstances and details are introduced which are intended merely to complete the similitudes in the parable. The interpreter should not attempt to interpret all such details. A parable. . . has but one central truth. Therefore, discover the central truth or theme which the parable is setting forth, and then explain the main circumstances of the parable in light of this truth, leaving out details incidental to its central idea” (Tan, p. 148). “To hunt for meanings in every detail in the parables is to turn them into allegories” (Zuck, p. 216).

https://plantedinchrist.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/hermeneutics-101-interpreting-parables-part-2/

WHat is the one central truth in the parables about trees and bearing fruit? How long it takes? UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM>………….NO!
Click to expand...
I see. I guess you are referring to the parable of the sower that Jesus told.

I am speaking of the N.T. theme that believers are to bear fruit.

I also see your argument tactics- accusing me of moving the goalpost where, in reality, you just out of the blue started shouting " parable , making it walk on all fours."

accusing others of doing what you are really doing.

argument tactics 101.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,108
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,108
Macabeus said:
The truth is that Jesus' use of tree and fruit bearing language was not to convey that it takes years for a believer to bear fruit. Any exegete worth his weight in dross knows that.

To say that was His intent is to BADLY MISHANDLE SCRIPTURE

The scriptures about trees bearing fruit and their intent HAS NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes believers to start bearing fruit. TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, WRETCHED, ABOMINABLE EISEGESIS you both are guilty of.

Plus, Eternally Gratefull and GB9 have both given examples where it does not take a period of growth to maturity to bear fruit, which contradicts your ALL INCLUSIVE statement that "it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear fruit."

God can use any believer to draw people to Himself. Which is bearing fruit.
Click to expand...
Nothing beyond this need be said. Have a nice life, fellas.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,109
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,109
gb9 said:
I see. I guess you are referring to the parable of the sower that Jesus told.

I am speaking of the N.T. theme that believers are to bear truth.

I also see your argument tactics- accusing me of moving the goalpost where, in reality, you just out of the blue started shouting " parable , making it walk on all fours."

accusing others of doing what you are really doing.

argument tactics 101.
Click to expand...
Jesus' use of tree and fruit bearing language in whatever scripture you want to go to, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, hear me now?... meant to convey that it takes years for a believer to bear fruit. Any exegete worth his weight in dross knows that.

To say that was His intent is to BADLY MISHANDLE SCRIPTURE

The scriptures about trees bearing fruit and their intent HAS NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes believers to start bearing fruit. TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, WRETCHED, ABOMINABLE EISEGESIS you both are guilty of.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,110
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#86,110
Macabeus said:
The truth is that Jesus' use of tree and fruit bearing language was not to convey that it takes years for a believer to bear fruit. Anyone exegete worth his weight in dross knows that.

To say that was His intent is to BADLY MISHANDLE SCRIPTURE

The scriptures about trees bearing fruit and their intent HAS NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes believers to start bearing fruit. TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, WRETCHED, ABOMINABLE EISEGESIS you both are guilty of.

Plus, Eternally Gratefull and GB9 have both given examples where it does not take a period of growth to maturity to bear fruit, which contradicts your ALL INCLUSIVE statement that "it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear fruit."

God can use any believer to draw people to Himself. Which is bearing fruit.
Click to expand...
DID you say anything...NO...just lip flappin........my statement was not false, nor did I use the words that indicate any time frame for ALL believers....you are deceptive as can be and just mouthing....end of story.......and the bolded above....I hear lips flappin in the wind.......blah blah blah........
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,112
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#86,112
gb9 said:
I see. I guess you are referring to the parable of the sower that Jesus told.

I am speaking of the N.T. theme that believers are to bear truth.

I also see your argument tactics- accusing me of moving the goalpost where, in reality, you just out of the blue started shouting " parable , making it walk on all fours."

accusing others of doing what you are really doing.

argument tactics 101.
Click to expand...
AMEN....lip flappin and gum smackin...............I guess Paul planting and Apollos watering failed....wonder how long it took for God to give the increase.................
 
longtrekker

longtrekker

Senior Member
#86,114
Sep 23, 2014
396
195
43
#86,114
Hevosmies said:
Guys i want to ask this from all of you reading this:

Do you LIKE doing righteousness? Do you like loving your enemies? Do you like turning the other cheek?

I heard in a sermon that if not, you've never been born again!

Well unfortunately for someone like me, the answer to all those questions is an honest NO. I absolutely hate turning the other cheek when someone offends me. i'd like to tell them how it is, and if they slap me literally, i'd like to KO them.

Over all, listening through that sermon, just made me feel like an unsaved devil, really. Its like, all the qualities that a born again Christian SHOULD HAVE, i do by the skin of my teeth (if thats what the saying was, i forgot the english proverb).

I'll create a fake situation: someone offends me, I wont say anything back to them, and i'll ask God to bless them in prayer, BUT in the mean while im in my mind cussing them out constantly. Then I ask God to forgive me for that, then the SECOND i've said amen, i think about the same things again. IT IS FRUSTRATING TO SAY THE LEAST. I do believe in Jesus and that He shed His blood on the cross for my sins and that its the only payment for my sins......

I dont know if its the STREEEETS that i come from, where i've learned all the wrong things and molded my thinking wrongly, but shouldnt God take care of that for saved people? Make it a JOY to be do righteousness? Instead of a pain!??

Can someone answer my questions honestly. Tell me how it is. PS: i dont believe this is derailing thread, SINCE its related to being born again.

Mark 7:6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

IS MY HEART FAR FROM THE LORD??

Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Am i full of hypocrisy and wickedness on the inside???
Click to expand...
.
U sound a lot like me !
.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#86,115
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#86,115
Macabeus said:
Do not make a parable walk on all fours “In every parable, many circumstances and details are introduced which are intended merely to complete the similitudes in the parable. The interpreter should not attempt to interpret all such details. A parable. . . has but one central truth. Therefore, discover the central truth or theme which the parable is setting forth, and then explain the main circumstances of the parable in light of this truth, leaving out details incidental to its central idea” (Tan, p. 148). “To hunt for meanings in every detail in the parables is to turn them into allegories” (Zuck, p. 216).

https://plantedinchrist.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/hermeneutics-101-interpreting-parables-part-2/

WHat is the one central truth in the parables about trees and bearing fruit? How long it takes? UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM>………….NO!
Click to expand...
Jesus must have missed that book when he explained the parable of the wheat and tares and EVERYTHING had meaning....
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#86,116
Jan 18, 2011
12,294
6,667
113
#86,116
Macabeus said:
Jesus' use of tree and fruit bearing language in whatever scripture you want to go to, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, WAS NOT, hear me now?... meant to convey that it takes years for a believer to bear fruit. Any exegete worth his weight in dross knows that.

To say that was His intent is to BADLY MISHANDLE SCRIPTURE

The scriptures about trees bearing fruit and their intent HAS NOTHING TO DO with how long it takes believers to start bearing fruit. TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE, WRETCHED, ABOMINABLE EISEGESIS you both are guilty of.
Click to expand...
so, after many days, all of a sudden, now you claim that you are referring to one specific piece of Scripture.

ya think you could have mentioned this days ago.

or you just moved the goalpost, ( which you did, while accusing me of doing it,)
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,117
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,117
dcontroversal said:
DID you say anything...NO...just lip flappin........my statement was not false, nor did I use the words that indicate any time frame for ALL believers....you are deceptive as can be and just mouthing....end of story.......and the bolded above....I hear lips flappin in the wind.......blah blah blah........
Click to expand...

Your use of the length of time needed for trees in nature to bear fruit carries over into Jesus' intent in the teachings about believer's being trees and bearing fruit. But that is a misapplication of scripture, because Jesus' intent was not to say "how long" it takes believers to bear fruit. It is a horrible mishandling of scripture on your part, and on GB9's part.

To say it takes ten, twenty years, whatever for whatever tree to bear fruit, and then apply that to Jesus' words is mistaking Jesus' actual intent and meaning in His words. It is MISAPPROPRIATING SCRIPTURE for your own benefit.

Cease and desist. You have been refuted.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,118
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,118
dcontroversal said:
Jesus must have missed that book when he explained the parable of the wheat and tares and EVERYTHING had meaning....
Click to expand...
What is the central truth of that parable? That it takes a period of growth and maturity to bear fruit? UMMMMM....NO!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#86,119
#86,119
GodsGrace101 said:
b. No. Those on the rocky soil hear and receive the word with joy. They BELIEVE (are saved) for a while, and then fall away. Matthew uses the words "they are TEMPORARY". So these would be persons who were believers, but then fell away. One must fall away from SOMETHING. If you think they're saved you'll have to explain what they fell away FROM. These fell away because they had no root...and they had temptation, or tribulation...there are different reasons why persons fall away from the faith.
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Wrong again, they were saved, there performance does not undo their salvation.

The did not live up to their potential in Christ, hence they fell away, it does not say they lost their salvation, especially when one considers this parable is about the soil that produces fruit not which one looses salvation.

Adding to the text.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#86,120
Dec 27, 2018
4,170
876
113
#86,120
gb9 said:
so, after many days, all of a sudden, now you claim that you are referring to one specific piece of Scripture.

ya think you could have mentioned this days ago.

or you just moved the goalpost, ( which you did, while accusing me of doing it,)
Click to expand...
There are many scriptures that talk about trees and or vines and fruit bearing. And I have been very clear the whole time that I am arguing AGAINST the proposition that a period of growth and maturity is a NECESSARY condition for the COMMENCEMENT of bearing fruit. (GO back and read my posts, obviously you haven't read them yet) You just haven't been reading.

Believers bear fruit while they are growing and maturing. People should be drawn to God by their testimony. It doesn't take a mature Christian to bear fruit. All believers can, unless their is a contingent reason why they don't.

But then this makes lack of fruit bearing based on a contingency, not a universal, all inclusive necessity, which is what the word "it takes..." instead of "it may take" imply.
 
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